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do schools kill creativity? Sir Ken Robinson

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Original post by l'etranger
mathematical vision and creating meaning from symbols are literally the same thing

/sarcasm



Original post by gjd800
Logic isn't the same thing as maths. You do know this, right?


Neither of you have any clue what logic is in the context of maths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_logic
Original post by lmaooowut
No, you're just bad at maths :biggrin::biggrin:. Mathematics is a great measure of logical thinking and problem solving, which is far more useful to society than someone who can write stories and debate. And who do you think builds machines to compute logically? Lmao. Also your SAT argument is invalid since the maths section of the SAT is the largest proportion, showing that even there they value people with mathematical ability as a far better indication of intelligence.



You life is determined by the bad decisions of politicians who managed to get where they are by being able to BS their way through life and convince mindless idiots that what they want is right. I would say being able to debate and convey one's opinion is far more important in this case.

Ironically many of these mindless idiots have been mass created from the UK and US education systems...
Original post by lmaooowut
maths does not have as much creativity


Mathematics does have a creativity. I agree. The talk given in the OP talks about the arts and aesthetic and a good mathematic proof is often thought to be elegant and aesthetic, inspiring all the things that were argued creativity is conductive towards. Mathematical beauty is even studied in aesthetics in philosophy departments.
Reply 23
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gjd800
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Original post by Athematica
Mathematics relies on assumptions in logic to even begin using other axioms. As I understand it, mathematical arguments need to be able to be expressed through a symbolic logic which is coherent and not defined by the mathematics itself.


The attempt to fully formalise maths in symbolic logic wasn't totally successful (and can't be if you are a mathematical realist, I suppose), but yes, there is logical impetus at play at the base level of mathematics. it could not proceed otherwise.
Original post by gjd800
Yes you have. You just said that someone (who, I don't know) had said or implied that you 'don't need maths to build machines'. Nobody has said that, and so you are both misrepresenting the position and putting words in mouths. As it stands, you come across as a STEM snob with some sort of superiority complex.


That person jumped onto programmers which is something I wasnt even talking about.

As it stands, you sound like a butthurt non STEM person with some sort of inferiority complex and a deep insecurity.
Reply 25
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gjd800
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Original post by lmaooowut
Neither of you have any clue what logic is in the context of maths.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathematical_logic


Read the first line. Keep reading it until you understand that 'mathematical logic' is a combination of two separate areas, one of which is formal logic. This is really very simple.
Reply 26
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gjd800
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No, I am just well versed in formal logic and can call out your nonsense. There's a difference.
Original post by Moonstruck16
You life is determined by the bad decisions of politicians who managed to get where they are by being able to BS their way through life and convince mindless idiots that what they want is right. I would say being able to debate and convey one's opinion is far more important in this case.

Ironically many of these mindless idiots have been mass created from the UK and US education systems...


The number of politicians are tiny. Being able to be critical of others is something else altogether. I agree, it is an incredibly important skill. Hence why English GCSE is compulsory and subjects like history for example continue to play a dominant role in our education system.

However advocating for a more creative education system is silly and compromises this as well. It's not all about maths and science.


Original post by Athematica
Mathematics does have a creativity. I agree. The talk given in the OP talks about the arts and aesthetic and a good mathematic proof is often thought to be elegant and aesthetic, inspiring all the things that were argued creativity is conductive towards. Mathematical beauty is even studied in aesthetics in philosophy departments.

Yes, totally agree.
Original post by gjd800
The attempt to fully formalise maths in symbolic logic wasn't totally successful (and can't be if you are a mathematical realist, I suppose), but yes, there is logical impetus at play at the base level of mathematics. it could not proceed otherwise.


I admittedly have only recently been exposed to Godel's incompleteness theorems, etc. and do not have a mathematical maturity yet. That said, I have read that Zermelo–Fraenkel set theory with the axiom of choice reconciles the paradoxes that were not able to be solved by Russel
Original post by gjd800
Read the first line. Keep reading it until you understand that 'mathematical logic' is a combination of two separate areas, one of which is formal logic. This is really very simple.


Yes, but its a subfield of mathematics. Thats my point idiot. Mathematics and logic intertwine, you cant have one without the other. Look at post 21.

You seem to have butted into a conversation, hence why you've confused yourself.

Original post by gjd800
No, I am just well versed in formal logic and can call out your nonsense. There's a difference.


Clearly not.
Reply 30
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gjd800
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Original post by lmaooowut
The number of politicians are tiny. Being able to be critical of others is something else altogether. I agree, it is an incredibly important skill. Hence why English GCSE is compulsory and subjects like history for example continue to play a dominant role in our education system.

However advocating for a more creative education system is silly and compromises this as well. It's not all about maths and science.



Yes, totally agree.


This is 100% the point!
Reply 31
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gjd800
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Original post by lmaooowut
Yes, but its a subfield of mathematics. Thats my point idiot. Mathematics and logic intertwine, you cant have one without the other. Look at post 21.

You seem to have butted into a conversation, hence why you've confused yourself.



Clearly not.



You can certainly have logic without mathematics, it is propositional at its core and relies on language. Christ. They intertwine in this case, not in every case.
Original post by lmaooowut
The number of politicians are tiny. Being able to be critical of others is something else altogether. I agree, it is an incredibly important skill. Hence why English GCSE is compulsory and subjects like history for example continue to play a dominant role in our education system.

However advocating for a more creative education system is silly and compromises this as well. It's not all about maths and science.



Yes, totally agree.


Being able to succesfully manipulate people is one of the best skills you can have.

But oh lord science. I admit that though I despised maths at school, I recognised it's value. But the way science is taught in school Jesus Christ.
Original post by gjd800
This is 100% the point!


I know, i've never underestimated the value of those subjects.

Original post by gjd800
You can certainly have logic without mathematics, it is propositional at its core and relies on language. Christ. They intertwine in this case, not in every case.


Yes, idc, I was talking about mathematical logic with that other poster before you randomly interrupted.

Cheap straw man there, ironic that you said I was using a straw man.
Original post by EC


Dunno what that is supposed to tell us about our education system...

Japan has a highly pressurised and conformity enforcing education system
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/uloop/japans-education-disaster_b_8691650.html

and Germany has a quite rigidly tramlined system

neither seem to be the sort of thing Ken thinks we should be emulating.
Original post by Moonstruck16
Being able to succesfully manipulate people is one of the best skills you can have.

But oh lord science. I admit that though I despised maths at school, I recognised it's value. But the way science is taught in school Jesus Christ.


I wouldn't put that in those words, certainly being good with people in general is arguably the most important skill someone can have.

They're all valuable. However, trying to increase creativity in a school will mean all of those subjects will suffer from less funding, resources and teaching time. Creativity should be honed in the naturally able, not forced down the throats of everyone.
Reply 36
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gjd800
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Original post by lmaooowut
No, you're just bad at maths :biggrin::biggrin:. Mathematics is a great measure of logical thinking and problem solving, which is far more useful to society than someone who can write stories and debate. And who do you think builds machines to compute logically? Lmao. Also your SAT argument is invalid since the maths section of the SAT is the largest proportion, showing that even there they value people with mathematical ability as a far better indication of intelligence.


And yet logic has its basis in validity of argumentation, not maths. Maths has only been purposefully studied with logic for 300 years, whereas logic has been about for 3000.

Where is that straw man you think I have built? You're either conflating all logics with the one that suits you best at the time, or you aren't half as well up on logic as you think. Could swing either way, mate.
Reply 37
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gjd800
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Original post by lmaooowut
I wouldn't put that in those words, certainly being good with people in general is arguably the most important skill someone can have.

They're all valuable. However, trying to increase creativity in a school will mean all of those subjects will suffer from less funding, resources and teaching time. Creativity should be honed in the naturally able, not forced down the throats of everyone.


On this we agree.
Original post by gjd800
And yet logic has its basis in validity of argumentation, not maths. Maths has only been purposefully studied with logic for 300 years, whereas logic has been about for 3000.

Where is that straw man you think I have built? You're either conflating all logics with the one that suits you best at the time, or you aren't half as well up on logic as you think. Could swing either way, mate.


Does any of this change the fact that mathematics does teach logical thinking?
Original post by lmaooowut
I wouldn't put that in those words, certainly being good with people in general is arguably the most important skill someone can have.

They're all valuable. However, trying to increase creativity in a school will mean all of those subjects will suffer from less funding, resources and teaching time. Creativity should be honed in the naturally able, not forced down the throats of everyone.


We live in a world where people blindly fear what isn't the norm. These are the easiest people to manipulate (as can be well seen in politics), so whilst being good with people is a good skill, being able to use people's weakness to get what you want, if needed, is also good.

That's all very well and good but I don't see they system changing any time soon. The point of education in this country is learning to pass exams. I will give it to you that maths need to be understood but for subjects like science literally all you need to do is learn the specification off by heart and you're sorted. Nothing else will be lost or gained.

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