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    Okay, interesting points, but here goes...

    the brain drain?
    Why are improved results the signs of a brain drain? I've never understood why qualifications being less strenuous was a more likely explination for rising acievement than the way communiations have made information so much easier to access through computers, TV etc, especially when the British economy continues to improve, not fall apart as I would epect to be the case if people were suddenly a lot thicker than they used to be. What's more we (or at least, I) are the result of the first few generations to have been to school until they are 16, to have more of our elders and influences go to university. It would not surprise me at all to find that education is culmalative in this way (i.e. our parent's are cleverer therefore we gain more knowledge and become cleverer still).

    participation in higher education increases employers will focus more on the rarity of a degree from an "elite" group
    Why? Employers need people to do their jobs. Very few are going to be so thick headed that they actrually have a black list of universities from which they'll not accept people, on the most part employers will examine CVs for people who look roughly suitable, but much more of an emphasis will be placed on how a candidate performs during the interview. You'd have to be pritty damn stupid to employ someone just because they went to Cambridge.

    The 50% who don't go are below average, and therefor not an employers target
    Not all employers will look for a degree when they're looking for workers. Let's go back to the construction industry, why should a bricky need a degree? However, this is not the same as saying a degree is wasted on a bricky - if someone wants to study at university they should have the right to. Moreover, why do we assume that the only way someone can contribute to society is economically? Couldn't a well educated bricky taking part in a discussion like this from an educated standpoint just strenthern the political and democratic nature of our society? Isn't the protection of liberty and happiness more important than a few thousand pounds?

    Where I struggle is with arguments over money. I would suggest Dave's friend needs to look at the Open University so she can work and study or, really radicaly, look at moving out of the South East to somewhere were living is significantly cheaper. As for 50 per cent meaning resources become more stretched, the only answer I can see is to charge the richest people more to help fund this or, ideally, raise taxes. I know most people don't like the idea of yet more tax but let's put this in perspective, is it better to save up more so you can buy another car that's just slightly shinier than the last one, or use your money to give someone a better chance at a happy and successful life?
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    (Original post by Minor_Deity)
    Why? Employers need people to do their jobs. Very few are going to be so thick headed that they actrually have a black list of universities from which they'll not accept people, on the most part employers will examine CVs for people who look roughly suitable, but much more of an emphasis will be placed on how a candidate performs during the interview. You'd have to be pritty damn stupid to employ someone just because they went to Cambridge.
    Employers in competitive industries already screen applications in order to speed up processing time, it seems likely that as the volume of applications increase the amount prejudices employers use to screen applications will also increase. i.e. some employers wont bother to 'dig' deeper into an applicant’s background, instead they will use 'keywords' synonymous with their preferences.
    Look at Law, there are far more applicants than jobs, this has had the effect that employers discriminate against applicants from universities they deem unfit.
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    Look at Law, there are far more applicants than jobs, this has had the effect that employers discriminate against applicants from universities they deem unfit.
    A shame, yet we can do with expanding the number of lawyers and judges actually IMO. Professor Gary Slapper will agree with me
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    A shame, yet we can do with expanding the number of lawyers and judges actually IMO. Professor Gary Slapper will agree with me
    lol. I've got a joke for you:
    An engineer dies and arrives in hell and then discovers that hell has no toilets, plumbing or air conditioning and precedes to install them (being an engineer and all). One day God decides to mock Satan and ask how things are in hell. To God's surprise the Devil answers that they have never been better as he now has an engineer fixing things and installing plumbing, etc which has made hell very nice indeed. God is furious and says that there must have been a mix up and the Devil must return the engineer to Heaven.
    "No replies Satan, I'm keeping him"
    "I'll sue retorts God"
    "And where are you going to get a lawyer from asks Satan?"
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    (Original post by Chubb)
    lol. I've got a joke for you:
    An engineer dies and arrives in hell and then discovers that hell has no toilets, plumbing or air conditioning and precedes to install them (being an engineer and all). One day God decides to mock Satan and ask how things are in hell. To God's surprise the Devil answers that they have never been better as he now has an engineer fixing things and installing plumbing, etc which has made hell very nice indeed. God is furious and says that there must have been a mix up and the Devil must return the engineer to Heaven.
    "No replies Satan, I'm keeping him"
    "I'll sue retorts God"
    "And where are you going to get a lawyer from asks Satan?"
    LOL!!!!!!!
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    (Original post by Chubb)
    lol. I've got a joke for you:
    An engineer dies and arrives in hell and then discovers that hell has no toilets, plumbing or air conditioning and precedes to install them (being an engineer and all). One day God decides to mock Satan and ask how things are in hell. To God's surprise the Devil answers that they have never been better as he now has an engineer fixing things and installing plumbing, etc which has made hell very nice indeed. God is furious and says that there must have been a mix up and the Devil must return the engineer to Heaven.
    "No replies Satan, I'm keeping him"
    "I'll sue retorts God"
    "And where are you going to get a lawyer from asks Satan?"
    LOL. Where did you get that from then? j/w
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    (Original post by happysunshine)
    I'll say no, it isn't.

    I am aware this isn't the first thread on this matter, but this is what I've come up with of why it isn't worth it.

    Apprentiships: An option at 16 to be earning rather than struggling away doing 5 AS Levels with little money to live on. A relative of mine has an option for working with a big company and earning £11,000+ at 16. Seriously. And yet their GCSE results will all be around the C area.
    [INDENT]These people are the clever ones, jobs that have shortages of people in them, meaning money is excellent and they can work for themselves.

    Leaving school at 18 Other than getting into to £20,000 of debt you can earn a salary at 18 of £9,200+ (along with travel allowance) to train with LAING in construction and still get a degree, for example. Many big firms offer the chance of qualification, social life and good pay. Why bother going to university?

    Without making anyone feel less special with their AAAA grades yesterday (well done!), most of you had the same or similar, and with a degree, how will all of you stand out? With 6.3% of graduates not getting employed (2002 figures), again is their any point? I feel companies now look for experience rather than qualifications to stand out.

    Maybe it's the fault of the government for not allowing people to stand out. Or maybe that 50% target is too much. Either way, I don't think you can not allow people with 3 A-Levels a place at university, and making the A* another grade of A-Levels would only make the gap between top schools and bottom schools get bigger. The 5 point grade scale, allows those who do not go to our best schools to finally achieve the top grade.
    I haven't read the entire thread, so apologies if this has been said.

    University is a complete waste of time for those wanting a more vocational course such as "Meat Technology" etc...you should just get a job in the industry if this is what you want to study. University should be for those who are academically VERY strong (i.e. A Level grades A-C) and who want an academic qualification to recognise the level of knowledge and achievement in a given area. It is also not a waste of time for those for whom a degree is essential, e.g. teachers, doctors etc. It just irritates me when I see people who aren't very clever or committed to study going to uni just for the sake of it.
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    (Original post by musicman)
    It just irritates me when I see people who aren't very clever or committed to study going to uni just for the sake of it.
    Same here. Could mean people who would benefit from university more would be denied this.
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    (Original post by musicman)
    It just irritates me when I see people who aren't very clever or committed to study going to uni just for the sake of it.
    They do it for the cheap beer at the Student Union
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Same here. Could mean people who would benefit from university more would be denied this.
    Exactly, and it also seems to devalue the achievements of those committed to study, if everybody has a degree then it no longer differentiates between those with aptitude for their subject.
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    (Original post by happysunshine)
    Without making anyone feel less special with their AAAA grades yesterday (well done!), most of you had the same or similar, and with a degree, how will all of you stand out? With 6.3% of graduates not getting employed (2002 figures), again is their any point? I feel companies now look for experience rather than qualifications to stand out.

    Maybe it's the fault of the government for not allowing people to stand out. Or maybe that 50% target is too much. Either way, I don't think you can not allow people with 3 A-Levels a place at university, and making the A* another grade of A-Levels would only make the gap between top schools and bottom schools get bigger. The 5 point grade scale, allows those who do not go to our best schools to finally achieve the top grade.
    Yes, there is a point. It's called intellectual fulfillment.

    Perhaps I'm being idealistic, but some people must go to university just to broaden their mind and horizons.
 
 
 
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