Why do poor people vote for the Torys? Watch

ChaoticButterfly
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“How can wealth persuade poverty to use its political power to keep wealth in power? Here lies the whole art of Conservative politics in the twentieth century.”
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Dalek1099
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(Original post by Moura)
I see so many working class people unsure whether to vote for Labour or Tory or are actively saying they will vote Tory... I fail to understand this. The majority of people in the UK will be adversely affected by anything the Tories do. The only thing they are interested in is ensuring the same people who are on top stay there and those at the bottom do the same. Even middle class I think have to be pretty unpleasant people to vote for them. I just don't understand WHY they are in power. Are people that conditioned that they think that they are lesser than those who have money?
I think that the Tories do more than any other party at ensuring that people get the best chance they can to be rich and successful.

1. They have increased University places which has lead to an increase in disadvantaged students going to University.There has been a slight fall recently but on the whole they have rose significantly since the Conservatives came to power.

2.They raised tuition fees, which helps Universities to afford to offer bursaries to poor students and all sorts of opportunities like for example research internships vital as employers are looking for a lot of experience and poor students can often lack this. In fact the rise in tuition fees is conditional on Universities providing enough support to disadvantaged students.

It is worth noting that removing tuition fees would have a terrible impact on poor students as Scotland shows.

3.They raised the amount of student loan that students get when going to University. With student rents on the rise and often very expensive this makes it easier for everyone especially poor or middle class students to go to University.This also helps students to save up money to help open up more opportunities to them.

4. They have introduced student loans for Masters and PhD students.Before this, apart from a small number of funding opportunities studying for a Masters or a PhD was out of reach for poor students and thus they couldn't follow careers that required them.Often without PhDs it will be a lot harder for poor students to reach the top jobs, for which employers want employees with a lot of research experience.

5.They are planning to create more Grammar Schools. This will mean that clever poor children will have similar educational opportunities as children who have rich parents going to private schools.

6. They have promoted facilitating subjects through introducing the English Baccalaureate and A Level Baccalaureate and we have seen an increase in students taking these subjects as a result. Colleges and Sixth Forms like to lie about how useful soft subjects are when they are detrimental to a students chances of getting into a top university and disadvantaged students are probably the least likely to know about this.

However, they make things really hard for poor and disabled people, who aren't able to become rich and successful.

I don't think that just because the Tories are helping people to have a fair chance thats justifiable for their attacks on the poor and disabled people.
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NoPunInThisName
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The Conservatives are very good at kicking people while they're down while telling them to be appreciative of what they have. Theresa May did a sterling job of this when speaking of the apparent 4% increase in NHS workers pay, despite in the long run being worse off with longer hours.
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Moura
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(Original post by Dalek1099)
I think that the Tories do more than any other party at ensuring that people get the best chance they can to be rich and successful.



2.They raised tuition fees, which helps Universities to afford to offer bursaries to poor students and all sorts of opportunities like for example research internships vital as employers are looking for a lot of experience and poor students can often lack this. In fact the rise in tuition fees is conditional on Universities providing enough support to disadvantaged students.

I was under the impression that the admission fees covered what the government was cutting from their university spending. Universities don't get more money, we just foot the bill. Also at least at my university, bursary has decreased as the years go on.
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SaucissonSecCy
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They buy what the Murdoch rags tell them. There's still a certain amount of cap doffing in the English, especially I'd say in the South-East working class, there are less working class Tory northerners, or there always were. Same with Scots. This seems to correlate with lack of education, as there was, apparently, much more of a culture of working class education to get on in the north(my family)- in the south maybe they are just resigned to a the class system via greater awareness of it. (bear in mind this regional divide may not be so true nowadays)

It's very interesting to me though how greater inequality, class consciousness, lack of education in working classes and conservatism all seem to correlate though.

There seems to be a bizarre logical contortion that socialism is middle class, peddled by the upper classes themselves, and the powerful, and not about 'bread and butter' realities. (whereas trickle down is) 'Posh boy revolutionaries' etc, which is just garbage, a total fraud. I think the elites have figured if you can associate leftism with the heinous subversion of intellectualism and hence portray it as vaguely limp-wristed, and/or sinister, you can get them onboard to vote for a life of penury.

The amount of working class hate I read about 'leftist :innocent::innocent::innocent::innocent::innocent:' is unbelievable.

It's all rather depressing and I see it as the product of centuries of the most class conditioned country( in the west at least)
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Rakas21
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(Original post by Moura)
I was under the impression that the admission fees covered what the government was cutting from their university spending. Universities don't get more money, we just foot the bill. Also at least at my university, bursary has decreased as the years go on.
It depends exactly on the university. Some universities have been able to pile up cash as a result (the number of places is also uncapped now) which means that universities with lots of theoretical courses (where the only real expense is teaching) make universities a lot of money now.

Universities like Oxford apparently spend £20k+ on their science and engineering stuff although they raise so much money via other means that they could educate their students for free if they wished.

Increased tuition fees is really not a bad thing for universities (so long as they can get large numbers on the right courses).
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Mair18919
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There are several factors which have alienated working class people from the left. Firstly is its been taken over by the middle classes, some of whom have an appallingly patronising view of working class people (see post above "They buy what the Murdoch rags tell them." This has been underlined since the referendum with the repeated claims by the middle class left that working class voters were not fit to have a say, did not know what they were voting for, had been 'tricked' , were thick and uneducated.

Secondly PCness. Working class people are generally more outspoken than middle class people, and like to call a spade a spade. They deeply resent being told what they are allowed to say and the left are the most repressive in this matter. It is also insulting to the working class that they continue to be the butt of middle class jeering while working class foreign people and those of foreign descent are 'protected' from any criticism.

Thirdly they despair over the new lefts stance on immigration. In general working class people do not like mass immigration, not only on the obvious grounds that immigrants are competing with them for homes and jobs, but because working class people are more geographically stable, and more likely to remain living in the community in which they were born. You are unlikely to object to demographic change in an area where you yourself are an incomer, but when you have been born and raised in an area where you know everyone and are part of a community, you naturally enough resent that community fragmenting and breaking up and other communities of which you are not part, rising to dominant status. This is one reason mosques in particular are resented because they are prominent visible symbols of a new community replacing the old. The left are far more concerned about the well being and hopes of incomers than the indigenous working class.
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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by Mair18919)
There are several factors which have alienated working class people from the left. Firstly is its been taken over by the middle classes, some of whom have an appallingly patronising view of working class people (see post above "They buy what the Murdoch rags tell them." This has been underlined since the referendum with the repeated claims by the middle class left that working class voters were not fit to have a say, did not know what they were voting for, had been 'tricked' , were thick and uneducated.

Secondly PCness. Working class people are generally more outspoken than middle class people, and like to call a spade a spade. They deeply resent being told what they are allowed to say and the left are the most repressive in this matter. It is also insulting to the working class that they continue to be the butt of middle class jeering while working class foreign people and those of foreign descent are 'protected' from any criticism.

Thirdly they despair over the new lefts stance on immigration. In general working class people do not like mass immigration, not only on the obvious grounds that immigrants are competing with them for homes and jobs, but because working class people are more geographically stable, and more likely to remain living in the community in which they were born. You are unlikely to object to demographic change in an area where you yourself are an incomer, but when you have been born and raised in an area where you know everyone and are part of a community, you naturally enough resent that community fragmenting and breaking up and other communities of which you are not part, rising to dominant status. This is one reason mosques in particular are resented because they are prominent visible symbols of a new community replacing the old. The left are far more concerned about the well being and hopes of incomers than the indigenous working class.
A lot of this just boils down to seeing the working class as cavemen who can never hold social liberally views which is an incredibly patronising and offensive view.
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SomeGuyHere
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I've done well out of the tories to be honest. They put the tax threshold to a level where I simply wasn't paying it for example. As for our failing school system... that's been an issue for years. Mine was awful and that was under labour. Just a results factor where they didn't care about failing students as long as the % who passed was "above average". When Ofsted came they actually sent the kids the didn't want there off to the zoo for a day (not even joking).

The NHS also had massive problems under labour. My works for them so I saw first hand how bad it was then. Wages have stopped growing across the public sector but I doubt labour would have managed better with their last policy of "austerity lite". Sad but there it is.

I'm at university now because I don't want to be stuck in a dead end job but that isn't their fault. If anything I blame the lib dems for my current debt. The massive riase in fees also put me off going at 18 (I would have been the first year paying 9k) so where people say "it hasn't made a difference"... yes it has. I'm in an area where they had an MP under the coalition. They don't anymore and for good reason.

I'm not saying Labour are bad, in fact I'm a party member(although I won't be renewing when it runs out), but the tories haven't been as bad as students seem to think they have. Not for those of us who went straight into work anyway.

Their current policy on EU membership is a big stumbling block as well. Single market membership is still being a part of the EU just without a say in decisions. It was agreed by everyone the "Norway" model would be awful before the referendum and nothing has changed. Except the working class voting the "wrong way" of course.
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George32
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(Original post by Dalek1099)
I think that the Tories do more than any other party at ensuring that people get the best chance they can to be rich and successful.

1. They have increased University places which has lead to an increase in disadvantaged students going to University.There has been a slight fall recently but on the whole they have rose significantly since the Conservatives came to power.

2.They raised tuition fees, which helps Universities to afford to offer bursaries to poor students and all sorts of opportunities like for example research internships vital as employers are looking for a lot of experience and poor students can often lack this. In fact the rise in tuition fees is conditional on Universities providing enough support to disadvantaged students.

It is worth noting that removing tuition fees would have a terrible impact on poor students as Scotland shows.

3.They raised the amount of student loan that students get when going to University. With student rents on the rise and often very expensive this makes it easier for everyone especially poor or middle class students to go to University.This also helps students to save up money to help open up more opportunities to them.

4. They have introduced student loans for Masters and PhD students.Before this, apart from a small number of funding opportunities studying for a Masters or a PhD was out of reach for poor students and thus they couldn't follow careers that required them.Often without PhDs it will be a lot harder for poor students to reach the top jobs, for which employers want employees with a lot of research experience.

5.They are planning to create more Grammar Schools. This will mean that clever poor children will have similar educational opportunities as children who have rich parents going to private schools.

6. They have promoted facilitating subjects through introducing the English Baccalaureate and A Level Baccalaureate and we have seen an increase in students taking these subjects as a result. Colleges and Sixth Forms like to lie about how useful soft subjects are when they are detrimental to a students chances of getting into a top university and disadvantaged students are probably the least likely to know about this.

However, they make things really hard for poor and disabled people, who aren't able to become rich and successful.

I don't think that just because the Tories are helping people to have a fair chance thats justifiable for their attacks on the poor and disabled people.
I couldn't agree more.
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George32
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(Original post by Moura)
I see so many working class people unsure whether to vote for Labour or Tory or are actively saying they will vote Tory... I fail to understand this. The majority of people in the UK will be adversely affected by anything the Tories do. The only thing they are interested in is ensuring the same people who are on top stay there and those at the bottom do the same. Even middle class I think have to be pretty unpleasant people to vote for them. I just don't understand WHY they are in power. Are people that conditioned that they think that they are lesser than those who have money?
Ambition and opportunity should be cherished and encouraged; not punished and misconstrued.

I'm a minority - Black British - of working class background from a traditionally Labour supporting household, who was state educated and first in immediate family to go to uni... and I'm not voting Labour.

Simply because, to quote Thomas Kerr, "...Labour seem to think that if you grow up in a box, you should stay in a box."

If my circumstances were to improve in the future, such as financially, for example, to Labour: I am now 'elite', irrespective of my background.

There is injustice in our society, I truly believe that: but is punishing success and aspiration the answer? Plus... many of Labour's economic policies tend to either lack feasibility or pretty much not make any sense.

However...

I don't necessarily identify as a 'conservative', and I definitely do not support the more-ideological attacks on poor and disabled people; I wish the Tories reformed their policy on such issues. I am glad Labour - and Conservatives, i.e. IDS, within the party - called out the Tory leadership on this.
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Cold Paul
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It goes way back to Disraeli who promised the poor a job for life if the voted conservative and served their country. This was used to recruit troops for the second boar war. I believe it was the most costly war Britain had found at the time. Many died and all the families of the soldiers who died were compensated thus instilling the notion of the concervatives being the party for the poor and this has been handed down for generations
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nutz99
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A lot of people don't vote Tory because they particularly want to.It's because the Labour party is made up of imbeciles. Having Dianne Abbott in the Shadow Cabinet has done more for the Tories chances than any campaigning could have.
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hpcp
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(Original post by 1010marina)
From what I've seen

Labour spend money and it gets all happy and fine until it turns out, oops they overspent. People vote in the Tories and they make a load of cuts to help the economy and people get cheesed off eventually and vote Labour in.

And yeah, this time specifically, Corbyn is a deal breaker.
Deal breaker to vote conservative?
Well he has a 10 billion gap in his plans according to IFS just by looking at the manifesto


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hpcp
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(Original post by SomeGuyHere)
I've done well out of the tories to be honest. They put the tax threshold to a level where I simply wasn't paying it for example. As for our failing school system... that's been an issue for years. Mine was awful and that was under labour. Just a results factor where they didn't care about failing students as long as the % who passed was "above average". When Ofsted came they actually sent the kids the didn't want there off to the zoo for a day (not even joking).

The NHS also had massive problems under labour. My works for them so I saw first hand how bad it was then. Wages have stopped growing across the public sector but I doubt labour would have managed better with their last policy of "austerity lite". Sad but there it is.

I'm at university now because I don't want to be stuck in a dead end job but that isn't their fault. If anything I blame the lib dems for my current debt. The massive riase in fees also put me off going at 18 (I would have been the first year paying 9k) so where people say "it hasn't made a difference"... yes it has. I'm in an area where they had an MP under the coalition. They don't anymore and for good reason.

I'm not saying Labour are bad, in fact I'm a party member(although I won't be renewing when it runs out), but the tories haven't been as bad as students seem to think they have. Not for those of us who went straight into work anyway.

Their current policy on EU membership is a big stumbling block as well. Single market membership is still being a part of the EU just without a say in decisions. It was agreed by everyone the "Norway" model would be awful before the referendum and nothing has changed. Except the working class voting the "wrong way" of course.
Exactly this!
Side point tuition fees aren't a bad thing as money needs to come from somewhere to increase uni standards, which were worse before fees can in.
It has reduced inequality in getting into uni and going to uni, and more people are in uni than before.
The problem without fees is that places are capped and this encourages unis to bring more international students who can pay more.
just maybe they shouldn't be so high at 9000 perhaps it would be better to be around 3000-6000.


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hpcp
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(Original post by BigYoSpeck)
He is yeah, manual labour.

The attitude towards an increase in the minimum wage was what surprised me most. It's such a protective attitude, the only pride he can have in his financial achievement is if others are kept poorer.

No consideration for the fact that a lower minimum wage would push middle incomes up.

No consideration for the fact that when he was that young person getting his first job at an equivalent entry level pay he could afford to buy a house.

And a total lack of realisation that having that attitude that those with 'less merit' than you being trodden down so that he feels like he's better than them is the very reason why despite his lifetime of experience and trained skills, he's on such a modest income that a £10 minimum wage leaves him feeling threatened as someone above him has the very same attitude.

So these are the obstacles in trying to reason with people who have this masochistic plan on voting Conservative. It's important to remember the lessons from Brexit and Trump presidency though that just calling people idiots will lose you the argument as they walk into the voting booth and spite you. I don't think my uncle will listen to any rational argument, he became quite sarcastic towards the end of the conversation. But there's nothing to lose talking to him in a reasonable way about it.
“If a man is not a socialist by the time he is 20, he has no heart. If he is not a conservative by the time he is 40, he has no brain.”
Age as well



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hpcp
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(Original post by Moura)
I see so many working class people unsure whether to vote for Labour or Tory or are actively saying they will vote Tory... I fail to understand this. The majority of people in the UK will be adversely affected by anything the Tories do. The only thing they are interested in is ensuring the same people who are on top stay there and those at the bottom do the same. Even middle class I think have to be pretty unpleasant people to vote for them. I just don't understand WHY they are in power. Are people that conditioned that they think that they are lesser than those who have money?
In reality
So, under the Conservatives, the top 1% earners have 12% of income but pay 28% of all income tax. The tax free income threshold has risen from £6700 (under Labour) to £11500, on the way to £12500
Income inequality is at its lowest level since 1986.

https://www.ft.com/content/394b82da-...b-e7eb37a6aa8e


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hpcp
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(Original post by gjd800)
A lot of people genuinely buy into this worker-shirker dichotomy that the Tories have peddled since 2010. It's difficult not to when it's rammed down your throat every day, I suppose.
A lot of people don't want to vote labour with corbyn as a leader
For his policies
And for him not being able to control his party


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hpcp
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(Original post by BigYoSpeck)
He is yeah, manual labour.

The attitude towards an increase in the minimum wage was what surprised me most. It's such a protective attitude, the only pride he can have in his financial achievement is if others are kept poorer.

No consideration for the fact that a lower minimum wage would push middle incomes up.

No consideration for the fact that when he was that young person getting his first job at an equivalent entry level pay he could afford to buy a house.

And a total lack of realisation that having that attitude that those with 'less merit' than you being trodden down so that he feels like he's better than them is the very reason why despite his lifetime of experience and trained skills, he's on such a modest income that a £10 minimum wage leaves him feeling threatened as someone above him has the very same attitude.

So these are the obstacles in trying to reason with people who have this masochistic plan on voting Conservative. It's important to remember the lessons from Brexit and Trump presidency though that just calling people idiots will lose you the argument as they walk into the voting booth and spite you. I don't think my uncle will listen to any rational argument, he became quite sarcastic towards the end of the conversation. But there's nothing to lose talking to him in a reasonable way about it.
Also some small businesses the 10 min wage can basically bankrupt them or reduce the number of staff they can have
Can raise unemployment


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hpcp
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(Original post by zayn008)
So 1010mania, I'd like to know, how have the Tory cuts actually helped the economy?
Deficit is down to 2% from 9% when started in 2010
Unemployment is down


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