Why does anyone think voting tory is a good idea? Watch

Trinculo
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
I am not trying spin. I am just trying to portray what it is like to live in austerity britain.

Not all nurses, get the benefits that you seem to claim. Like i said before, i know people who struggle with the current system. A friend who is a nurse has a contracted 11:30 hours per day and her final salary is about £20850. When you add the odd overtime that she does it comes up to £23450. That is her working more than 55 hours per week.

With rising costs, one can see that she cannot even reach the average salary, when she clocks more time than the average worker does.

The fact of 1.8million pupils is a positive despite tory cuts to education budgets. You have teachers, administrators and other heads campaigning for more support. Yet, there is the barely minimum.

You have confirmed my point with housing that we need more investment over drastic and deep cuts. How can we build 1 million new homes, when the government is asking local councils to look for more ways to "save" money? Despite there being no money to save.

The truth of the matter is that people are suffering under a harsh tory government. This was very similar to the Tatcher Government.

All I ask is that people wake up and say enough is enough. Else, the tories will push more people off the cliff.
So you think that the Conservatives are just a naturally evil group who wish for reasons unknown to inflict the maximum harm on the largest number of people?

And historically, the largest number of people vote for this - because....they're wrong and you're right?
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paul514
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
I am not trying spin. I am just trying to portray what it is like to live in austerity britain.

Not all nurses, get the benefits that you seem to claim. Like i said before, i know people who struggle with the current system. A friend who is a nurse has a contracted 11:30 hours per day and her final salary is about £20850. When you add the odd overtime that she does it comes up to £23450. That is her working more than 55 hours per week.

With rising costs, one can see that she cannot even reach the average salary, when she clocks more time than the average worker does.

The fact of 1.8million pupils is a positive despite tory cuts to education budgets. You have teachers, administrators and other heads campaigning for more support. Yet, there is the barely minimum.

You have confirmed my point with housing that we need more investment over drastic and deep cuts. How can we build 1 million new homes, when the government is asking local councils to look for more ways to "save" money? Despite there being no money to save.

The truth of the matter is that people are suffering under a harsh tory government. This was very similar to the Tatcher Government.

All I ask is that people wake up and say enough is enough. Else, the tories will push more people off the cliff.
Thanks for confirming what I said was correct on all the points I made.


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Wired_1800
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(Original post by paul514)
Thanks for confirming what I said was correct on all the points I made.


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Haha you are welcome
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Trinculo)
So you think that the Conservatives are just a naturally evil group who wish for reasons unknown to inflict the maximum harm on the largest number of people?

And historically, the largest number of people vote for this - because....they're wrong and you're right?
No I dont think I am right and you are wrong. I just think that many people have been misled by the tory government. The basic theme of tory politics is to blame someone else. Blame the poor man, the student, the immigrant and other small sets.

The issue is that people have been told since 2010 that Labour is a toxic party, who will wreck the economy and destroy lives. However that is not true.

When you look at the damage that tories have done, you would see that they are the party they claim Labour is.

My opinion of the conservative is that they protect special interests, just like labour. Unfortunately, tory special interests are based around making the rich (who have sponsored their party) secure to the detriment of the masses.

I think some people vote for tory based on many different reasons. Some may be due to the media bashing of labour, the personality politics, the tory lies etc.

Now i am not saying that Labour politicians are saints, but they can do a better job than the tories.

In the end, people need to decide what future they want.
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extermin8or
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(Original post by seaholme)
If somebody wants to use a nuclear weapon us having one or not isn't going to make a difference. If our view is that we'd never be the first to fire one (and I'd hope that is the case!), we may as well not have them at all, as the only way we'd ever use them would be reactive. And reactively firing a nuclear weapon simply assures the deaths of millions more innocent people than are already about to die, as we unleash our bomb to blow them up in the intervening minutes before getting blown up ourselves. What a splendid victory...
How incredibly naive of you. The missiles aren't there to be used. They are there because no one can ever nuke you if there is a chance that they will be nuked in return. So whilst it may be suspected you wouldn't bother avenging yourself and all the fellow citizens that would die in such an attack, they cannot be certain and therefore-neither side can use them that is why it's important we have our nuclear deterrent in the form of trident, where it can be anywhere in the world and almost undetectabe.
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seaholme
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(Original post by extermin8or)
How incredibly naive of you. The missiles aren't there to be used. They are there because no one can ever nuke you if there is a chance that they will be nuked in return. So whilst it may be suspected you wouldn't bother avenging yourself and all the fellow citizens that would die in such an attack, they cannot be certain and therefore-neither side can use them that is why it's important we have our nuclear deterrent in the form of trident, where it can be anywhere in the world and almost undetectabe.
Is it more naive to pretend we might use weapons we never will, or to just admit that we'll never use them? That is the question. One saves us a hell of a lot of money and posturing. Few countries in the world have nuclear weapons and fundamentally it matters not one jot whether we actually do or don't. There is no non-nuclear country presently being assaulted for its lack of nuclear weapons because they are fundamentally apocalyptic and therefore un-useable.
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extermin8or
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
No I dont think I am right and you are wrong. I just think that many people have been misled by the tory government. The basic theme of tory politics is to blame someone else. Blame the poor man, the student, the immigrant and other small sets.

The issue is that people have been told since 2010 that Labour is a toxic party, who will wreck the economy and destroy lives. However that is not true.

When you look at the damage that tories have done, you would see that they are the party they claim Labour is.

My opinion of the conservative is that they protect special interests, just like labour. Unfortunately, tory special interests are based around making the rich (who have sponsored their party) secure to the detriment of the masses.

I think some people vote for tory based on many different reasons. Some may be due to the media bashing of labour, the personality politics, the tory lies etc.

Now i am not saying that Labour politicians are saints, but they can do a better job than the tories.

In the end, people need to decide what future they want.
No one further left wing than tony blair has been elected in over 40 years now. Do we think there is a reason for that. All the western countries even those that play with some socialist policies and such are generally quite right wing. Exceptions being china who isn't communist but is a one party state where the state owns alot of businesses however those bussinesses operate like any other generally speaking and the only reason this works is because of the totaliarism of the regime.

Now can we address the comments made above about Abbot, Corbyn and Mcdonal. It's nothing todo with personalities for starters. Beliefs however thats another massive. We have dianne abbot a woman that's shown herself to be racist and sexist on more than one occasion and recently said on live tv that chairman Maow did "more good than bad" i mean if you consider being directly responsible for millions of deaths a good thing then maybe she's right otherwise......
Then we have John Mcdonal a man who is a self confessed marxist has over the years spouted rediculous remarks relating to economic policy and demonstrated economic incompetence ha also made comments suggetsing he too thought that Chairman Maow had done good stuff. Oh lets not forget as late as 1998 opposing the Ireland peace process. Which leads us onto Mr Corbyn- a man who claims to have been trying to encourage peace in ireland however was apparently part of a factional group within labour that opposed the peaceful SDLP and any suggestions that came from them. He was a membr of the board and incharge of all admin for this group. A group that repeatedly made remarks encouraging the IRA, refused to condemn them and infact even made statements basically saying they thought it as justified... Even in the aftermath of a bombing designed to assassinate our PM.

Nurses- it was already addressed
Food banks are a massive red herring prior to 2010 they got little publicity and post 2010 healthcare workers were given leaflets to hand out and vouchers to give to those they felt could benefit something they didn't do before 2010 and the media has given them more publicity. Furthermore whats the real difference really between giving somene benefits to ensure they can afford food and just giving them food.... There is very little.
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Trinculo
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
No I dont think I am right and you are wrong. I just think that many people have been misled by the tory government. The basic theme of tory politics is to blame someone else. Blame the poor man, the student, the immigrant and other small sets.

The issue is that people have been told since 2010 that Labour is a toxic party, who will wreck the economy and destroy lives. However that is not true.

When you look at the damage that tories have done, you would see that they are the party they claim Labour is.

My opinion of the conservative is that they protect special interests, just like labour. Unfortunately, tory special interests are based around making the rich (who have sponsored their party) secure to the detriment of the masses.

I think some people vote for tory based on many different reasons. Some may be due to the media bashing of labour, the personality politics, the tory lies etc.

Now i am not saying that Labour politicians are saints, but they can do a better job than the tories.

In the end, people need to decide what future they want.
You could say that the basic theme of all politics is to blame someone else. In the case of Labour- it's the "rich". The larger issue is that left sided politics lately has become all about hate and shame. The predominant message in just about everything from every colour of the left is that anyone who does not share their view is in some way flawed- either ignorant, uneducated or in some way evil. No one is allowed to have politics other than theirs. You've done it yourself in this post.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by extermin8or)
No one further left wing than tony blair has been elected in over 40 years now. Do we think there is a reason for that. All the western countries even those that play with some socialist policies and such are generally quite right wing. Exceptions being china who isn't communist but is a one party state where the state owns alot of businesses however those bussinesses operate like any other generally speaking and the only reason this works is because of the totaliarism of the regime.

Now can we address the comments made above about Abbot, Corbyn and Mcdonal. It's nothing todo with personalities for starters. Beliefs however thats another massive. We have dianne abbot a woman that's shown herself to be racist and sexist on more than one occasion and recently said on live tv that chairman Maow did "more good than bad" i mean if you consider being directly responsible for millions of deaths a good thing then maybe she's right otherwise......
Then we have John Mcdonal a man who is a self confessed marxist has over the years spouted rediculous remarks relating to economic policy and demonstrated economic incompetence ha also made comments suggetsing he too thought that Chairman Maow had done good stuff. Oh lets not forget as late as 1998 opposing the Ireland peace process. Which leads us onto Mr Corbyn- a man who claims to have been trying to encourage peace in ireland however was apparently part of a factional group within labour that opposed the peaceful SDLP and any suggestions that came from them. He was a membr of the board and incharge of all admin for this group. A group that repeatedly made remarks encouraging the IRA, refused to condemn them and infact even made statements basically saying they thought it as justified... Even in the aftermath of a bombing designed to assassinate our PM.

Nurses- it was already addressed
Food banks are a massive red herring prior to 2010 they got little publicity and post 2010 healthcare workers were given leaflets to hand out and vouchers to give to those they felt could benefit something they didn't do before 2010 and the media has given them more publicity. Furthermore whats the real difference really between giving somene benefits to ensure they can afford food and just giving them food.... There is very little.
I think it is unfair to judge Labour's leadership on past and old utterances. Imagine, if i had to make a decision on you and used something about you that occured about 20 years ago.

I dont think that Europe or the West is generally "right wing". I think it is a stance that has been propagated by the media and embraced by some people. This is because the alternative is viewed as people with stupid ideology or extreme leftist.

Also, to refute your point of western political ideology, i just have to point to some Scandinavian countries that deploy more socialist left leaning policies than right wing ones.

Look, my point throughout this thread is to try and shine light on the Tory Government and the destruction they are causing. Unfortunately, when i watch the media, i see a concerted effort to paint labour as the bad party when the current government has messed up the economy.

Like i said before, people have to make a decision and then we see. We can see the chaos that exists within the NHS, railways, energy industry, education, security etc.

Let us just give the Labour Party a chance to save the nation.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Trinculo)
You could say that the basic theme of all politics is to blame someone else. In the case of Labour- it's the "rich". The larger issue is that left sided politics lately has become all about hate and shame. The predominant message in just about everything from every colour of the left is that anyone who does not share their view is in some way flawed- either ignorant, uneducated or in some way evil. No one is allowed to have politics other than theirs. You've done it yourself in this post.
I did not mean to paint that picture through my post.

All i have been trying to show is a different side of the argument. There is more negative press about the Labour Party, which does not allow people to go deep and analyse their policies.

For Theresa May to refuse to debate on national tv, shows the disdain she has for free and reasoned debate. Rather she hides behind the Murdoch media empire to help with the Labour bashing.

It is the reason why i have vehemently tried to show a different side to what we have been fed.

I believe in a reasoned debate and i am not an ignorant tool who chooses to dismiss other people's argument, but rather counter it with reasoned rebuttals.
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paul514
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(Original post by Trinculo)
You could say that the basic theme of all politics is to blame someone else. In the case of Labour- it's the "rich". The larger issue is that left sided politics lately has become all about hate and shame. The predominant message in just about everything from every colour of the left is that anyone who does not share their view is in some way flawed- either ignorant, uneducated or in some way evil. No one is allowed to have politics other than theirs. You've done it yourself in this post.
Well said


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extermin8or
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
I think it is unfair to judge Labour's leadership on past and old utterances. Imagine, if i had to make a decision on you and used something about you that occured about 20 years ago.

I dont think that Europe or the West is generally "right wing". I think it is a stance that has been propagated by the media and embraced by some people. This is because the alternative is viewed as people with stupid ideology or extreme leftist.

Also, to refute your point of western political ideology, i just have to point to some Scandinavian countries that deploy more socialist left leaning policies than right wing ones.

Look, my point throughout this thread is to try and shine light on the Tory Government and the destruction they are causing. Unfortunately, when i watch the media, i see a concerted effort to paint labour as the bad party when the current government has messed up the economy.

Like i said before, people have to make a decision and then we see. We can see the chaos that exists within the NHS, railways, energy industry, education, security etc.

Let us just give the Labour Party a chance to save the nation.
See but this is the thing one of Corbyn's things has been "I hold same principals I held when I first became an mp" well that's very very concerning considering your history. Furthermore were we talking minor things here then dairnenkugh but none of this is minor please remember both John and Jeremy have at some point in past few years, just the other week John did sk+stand onstage in London with soviet union flags being held up behind him and in crowd etc and gave speeches. Certainly suggests their views haven't changed much.
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by extermin8or)
See but this is the thing one of Corbyn's things has been "I hold same principals I held when I first became an mp" well that's very very concerning considering your history. Furthermore were we talking minor things here then dairnenkugh but none of this is minor please remember both John and Jeremy have at some point in past few years, just the other week John did sk+stand onstage in London with soviet union flags being held up behind him and in crowd etc and gave speeches. Certainly suggests their views haven't changed much.
Look at the policies and not the man. We debate ideas and not people.

Tory ideas are toxic, in my opinion, and the reason why we are debating the alternative of Labour's approach.
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seaholme
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(Original post by extermin8or)
No one further left wing than tony blair has been elected in over 40 years now. Do we think there is a reason for that. All the western countries even those that play with some socialist policies and such are generally quite right wing. Exceptions being china who isn't communist but is a one party state where the state owns alot of businesses however those bussinesses operate like any other generally speaking and the only reason this works is because of the totaliarism of the regime.

Now can we address the comments made above about Abbot, Corbyn and Mcdonal. It's nothing todo with personalities for starters. Beliefs however thats another massive. We have dianne abbot a woman that's shown herself to be racist and sexist on more than one occasion and recently said on live tv that chairman Maow did "more good than bad" i mean if you consider being directly responsible for millions of deaths a good thing then maybe she's right otherwise......
Then we have John Mcdonal a man who is a self confessed marxist has over the years spouted rediculous remarks relating to economic policy and demonstrated economic incompetence ha also made comments suggetsing he too thought that Chairman Maow had done good stuff. Oh lets not forget as late as 1998 opposing the Ireland peace process. Which leads us onto Mr Corbyn- a man who claims to have been trying to encourage peace in ireland however was apparently part of a factional group within labour that opposed the peaceful SDLP and any suggestions that came from them. He was a membr of the board and incharge of all admin for this group. A group that repeatedly made remarks encouraging the IRA, refused to condemn them and infact even made statements basically saying they thought it as justified... Even in the aftermath of a bombing designed to assassinate our PM.

Nurses- it was already addressed
Food banks are a massive red herring prior to 2010 they got little publicity and post 2010 healthcare workers were given leaflets to hand out and vouchers to give to those they felt could benefit something they didn't do before 2010 and the media has given them more publicity. Furthermore whats the real difference really between giving somene benefits to ensure they can afford food and just giving them food.... There is very little.
Tony Blair wasn't right wing, he was a largely centre ground politician. As in fact was Cameron in most ways. Theresa May is a confusing fish in that she is quite far out on the right wing on some issues (immigration, welfare) but also has views traditionally seen on the further left wing side of politics. Wanting to see mandatory employee placement on company boards, restricting executive pay to multiples of employee salary, wanting to intervene in capping energy prices and trying to control markets in everything ranging from energy to healthcare. These are the ideas of unions, not free marketeers.

In my opinion 'right wing' and 'left wing' are unhelpful labels because they are just broad strokes which don't always describe individuals and mainly serve as weapons with which each side bashes the other.

Similarly the paranoid equation of Labour politicians with Marxism makes me despair somewhat. One side tries to criticise the other by trying to force associations between their views and the most extreme and damaging version ever of those same views, to create this dystopian black and white version of politics. For every person calling Corbyn a Marxist there's another person calling Theresa May a Nazi. They're both democratic politicians and one is no more a Marxist than the other is a Nazi, that's just people slapping on 'left' and 'right' labels and then becoming hysterical.

On one final note regarding food banks, benefits are state provided to those in need and food banks are provided by charities. So the main difference between one and the other, besides the fact that benefit money can be used for other essential non-food items, is that one is the state providing for its citizens and the other is an example of the state failing to provide for its citizens. Luckily there are some kind hearted and charitable people out there who are trying to paper up the gaps. It's actually a very important distinction especially in a conversation about government, which has the role of the 'state' in these things!
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QuentinM
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(Original post by Wired_1800)

I watched BBC Question Time, where one woman was crying that she voted Tory and they took away some of her benefits. I was angry at how stupid she was.

Let me put this for you, George Osborne ruined the economy, and then got jobs advising a big bank and working for the London Evening Standard. When he faced criticism, he simply quit as an MP. This is a man, who said that he puts his constituents and country first.

Please wake up and stop playing the fool for the rich. Trust me, the tories don't care about you.
"I was angry at how stupid she was".....really? We gonna resort to calling people stupid now?

I wouldn't call them stupid-its not their fault if the only information they are fed is biased or otherwise incorrect and they can't make a proper informed decision.

(Original post by paul514)
Nurses who's salary is higher than the national average wage and who's minimum starting wage is only 5k below the national average wage.... yea ok it's their pay that drove them to a food bank 😂

There are no accurate figures for homelessness but when prices for having a roof over your head rise, homelessness would also rise.

There are 1.8 million more kids in a school classed as good or outstanding than before they came in..... hardly dodgy.

The rich always get richer, we live in a capitalist system and all the quantitive easing we have done pushes asset prices through the roof....

You say how stupid people are and list a load of *******s that means nothing, it's you that doesn't have a clue.

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tbh the Tories did cut the NHS nurses training bursary so they go into the job in worse debt that they would have 5-10 years ago. And with the pay freeze going on, their wages haven't risen in line with inflation, but all their expenditures have-of course they were going to run out of spare cash at the end of each month soon enough.

There may be more kids in good or outstanding schools (obvs good) but there are larger deficits in school budgets, to the point were excess expenditures by schools (for materials, textbooks, etc) are being squeezed and more have to be covered by the students and teachers themselves. And lets nor forget, once they leave schools, most of them won't be able to pay off student loans so won't opt to go to university.
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paul514
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(Original post by QuentinM)
"I was angry at how stupid she was".....really? We gonna resort to calling people stupid now?

I wouldn't call them stupid-its not their fault if the only information they are fed is biased or otherwise incorrect and they can't make a proper informed decision.



tbh the Tories did cut the NHS nurses training bursary so they go into the job in worse debt that they would have 5-10 years ago. And with the pay freeze going on, their wages haven't risen in line with inflation, but all their expenditures have-of course they were going to run out of spare cash at the end of each month soon enough.

There may be more kids in good or outstanding schools (obvs good) but there are larger deficits in school budgets, to the point were excess expenditures by schools (for materials, textbooks, etc) are being squeezed and more have to be covered by the students and teachers themselves. And lets nor forget, once they leave schools, most of them won't be able to pay off student loans so won't opt to go to university.
That's a lot of assumptions without basis


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Wired_1800
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[QUOTE=QuentinM;71432518]"I was angry at how stupid she was".....really? We gonna resort to calling people stupid now?

I wouldn't call them stupid-its not their fault if the only information they are fed is biased or otherwise incorrect and they can't make a proper informed decision.

i/QUOTE]

I agree that it was uncalled for to call the woman stupid, but i disagree with your point. During the 2015 elections, it was clearly debated that the tories will cut welfare services. Even Tory politicians said there will be "reforms" and we would have to make "sacrifices".

That woman then goes to vote for them. They then keep their promise and cut welfare. The woman goes on tv to cry that she did not believe they would do it. Really?!

I think people should do some research and vote wisely. I did my research then, as i am doing now. It was the same with brexit and the £350M lie.

Now people are campaigning that the tories will ruin the nation. Yet people don't seem to agree with it and intend to support them. When they wreck the country, people should not cry and play the victim card because they knew what they were voting for.
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Rock Fan
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I would never trust Labour after what Tony Blair did, problem is Tories are just as bad
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Wired_1800
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(Original post by Rock Fan)
I would never trust Labour after what Tony Blair did, problem is Tories are just as bad
What did Tony Blair do?
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Rock Fan
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(Original post by Wired_1800)
What did Tony Blair do?
Him and Gordon Brown wrecked our economy and let everyone and everyone into the country, don't mind people coming from abroad but it needs to be controlled
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