Being rejected by Oxbridge

Have you ever experienced a different system of higher education? Independent learning doesn't mean that you do your learning on your own, it rather means that decisions about your curriculum and the organization of your studies is up to you (within certain boundaries).

Independent learning doesn't mean that you do your learning on your own

And once again you're showing ignorance of the system here.

Is there another way how somebody could learn? I've never seen someone who learned through another person... and I can't imagine how you would do that? Hit the learner with a book until he knows what's written in it?
Honestly, reading a book yourself doesn't mean you're an independent learner as long as you were told what book you have to read instead of deciding yourself about your reading.

In German speaking countries (at least at Austrian universities) you can decide about your schedule on your own, you decide wether you attend e.g lectures, you decide which modules you want to do and which things you want to learn about. If you want to complete your bachelors degree in 3 years, that's okay, if you want to do it in 4 or 5 years, that would be okay too. You can study towards only one degree, or you are free to combine it with a second one or even a third. You can do that at the beginning of your studies at university or towards the end.

Unfortunately, within the framework of the Bologna process this system is going to be abandoned.

You're not going to be burnt at the stake for skipping a lecture.

I can only speak from 2nd-hand information here, but at Oxford, studying Physics, you do decide what modules you want to do. There are compulsory modules, but that's because they're fundamental - you can't understand the other choices if you don't study the fundies first.

Your point about the flexibility of the courses is valid, but there's a compromise. Oxford and Cambridge have got universities to run.

They can't pander to the needs of every single student and give lectures to different students in different timescales. Perhaps they could in the Austrian system, but it sounds like a nightmare to organise. A university has to actually run, and it's much better if everyone on the same course does things to a uniform timescale.

t's generally advisable to turn up, though, because otherwise you're floundering all on your own with nothing but textbooks to guide you. If you're going to do that, why bother going to university at all? If you want to be pedantic, 100% independent learning won't even allow you textbooks; you're dependant on the author. You'd have to do your own research and work everything out from first principles, in complete isolation from everybody else, to be a "real" independent learner. You have fun now!

Can I ask why you'd go to university to 'do whatever you want'? Surely having set work (within a very flexible system) is beneficial to having no structure whatsoever, for everyone involved?

But you do decide which books you read

I think the point he was trying to make was that students at other universities don't get herded in to independent work by regular tutorials, rather have to make the decision to write a non-assessed essay on their own. That sort of work requires greater self-motivation than having the added push of a deadline/tutor.

Yeah, you're right (as usual). I know that people at Oxbridge/UK universities aren't dumb and I understand they do some independent learning. Still, your supervisor certainly won't tell you "For next week, write an essay about what you think is worthy to write about." throughout the year, will he?

It is quite frustrating that many people are rendering non-oxbridge but ICL/UCL/LSE students 'lazier' because they don't have a tutorial essay a week, while most still feel like they are working continuously for longer essays every week and a half. I know for a fact that in an area of my subject, essays are set on much larger texts and than any deadline difference would suggest. Additionally, any non-essay time is still eaten up by contextual reading because (shockingly!) students at these universities are very motivated and interested in their subjects and want to do well. The sense of continuous work is really prevalent regardless of deadlines.

Well, provided you're doing an essay subject, then yes, of course you get to pick your own topic; most of the time you get to decide what your next tutorial is going to be on anyway, so that's sort of implied.

I think the point he was trying to make was that students at other universities don't get herded in to independent work by regular tutorials, rather have to make the decision to write a non-assessed essay on their own. That sort of work requires greater self-motivation than having the added push of a deadline/tutor.

Yeah, but who actually does that? I don't know much about the Austrian system, but it sounds a lot like the (old) German system, which I happen to know quite well. You're required to write a long essay (one per module, that is) over the vacation, so that's what people do. I don't know a single person who attended a German university and wrote non-assessed essays of their own accord or started working on their "Hausarbeit" any earlier than two weeks before the deadline.

You see, that's the main problem about a system that leaves students so much "freedom": it sounds great in theory, but in practice it often just means people have a licence to be lazy and only do the minimum amount of work required, and neither the university nor the lecturers really care.

Well, you did your first undergraduate degree at a German university and you still made it into Oxford (and you've finished it successfully, as far as I know). So, your first degree - even though the system might have supported laziness - must have taught you at least something valuable.

I attend a type of school that is not supporting independent learning. High workload keeps us busy and there's not much time for us to spend on activities like reading literature, sports and so forth... and this affects our thinking, actually narrows our horizon. University would be the right place for us to evolve as humans, do a little thinking about ourself and our personality, to be engaged in things. This is only possible if you're not guided to much... if you never had the chance to have some lazy time and to make your own decision what kind of person are you going to be when you're older? Nobody cares how much knowledge you have acquired when your personality tells you're a jerk.
So, if our uni's don't give us the chance to gain maturity, we could either try to catch up later or ... well, bad luck.
And as far as I know the lazy educational system of middle europe has worked pretty well.

I think it's a bit of a myth, really.

Of course, and there are compulsory subjects in the system I'm talking about too. This is completely okay and some guidance for students is necessary to get at least some of them through the course.
I was talking about mathematicians taking a substantial number of modules about english literature and art history or anything else, completely up to their choice.