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Thoughts on Piers Morgan asking whether he could identify as an elephant Watch

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    (Original post by _gcx)
    Why would "elephant" be an invalid gender identity?

    Is there some sort of documentation that I should consult to ensure that my gender identity is accepted by the LGBT community?
    Elephant isnt a gender?
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    (Original post by E102)
    Elephant isnt a gender?
    What makes a gender a gender, then?
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    What makes a gender a gender, then?
    Male - female and the genders in between, not animals or other species
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    (Original post by E102)
    Male - female and the genders in between, not animals or other species
    This sounds quite arbitrary. What requirement does a gender identity have to fulfil to be qualify as a valid gender, in your eyes? (these are legitimate questions, by the way, I'm curious) That's why I asked:


    Is there some sort of documentation that I should consult to ensure that my gender identity is accepted by the LGBT community?
    I view the current state of the concept of gender as arbitrary enough without further complications.
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    This is a bit off topic but do you guys think being transracial is a thing?
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    (Original post by lonyeka)
    This is a bit off topic but do you guys think being transracial is a thing?
    People unironically claim that transraciality exists?
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    This sounds quite arbitrary. What requirement does a gender identity have to fulfil to be qualify as a valid gender, in your eyes? (these are legitimate questions, by the way, I'm curious)
    I think has to be on the male or female scale whether it is genderfluid, or no gender at all
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    People used to identify me as an elephant because I have big ears, i would love to challenge him on the topic. I don't believe he qualifies.
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    (Original post by E102)
    I think has to be on the male or female scale whether it is genderfluid, or no gender at all
    A scale measured by what, exactly?

    How can one have no gender, or fluctuate it at will if it's not a meaningful concept?

    It may also help to ask: how do you define gender?
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    People unironically claim that transraciality exists?
    Yeah - some people argue that it's a thing but most people don't think it is
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    (Original post by lonyeka)
    Yeah - some people argue that it's a thing but most people don't think it is
    Fortunately, you can't change something genetically defined...

    Wait a second.
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    A scale measured by what, exactly?

    How can one have no gender, or fluctuate it at will if it's not a meaningful concept?

    It may also help to ask: how do you define gender?
    I would hesitate to describe it as a 'scale', as then some literal-minded people start imagining a numerical scale.

    It is a meaningful concept. Gender refers to one's sense of identity with reference to 'male' and 'female', taken usually in social or cultural contexts rather than a biological one, as sex is.

    'Elephant' clearly does not refer to gender identity.


    (Original post by _gcx)
    Fortunately, you can't change something genetically defined...

    Wait a second.
    See above. Gender is not genetically defined.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Gender refers to one's sense of identity with reference to 'male' and 'female', taken usually in social or cultural contexts rather than a biological one, as sex is.

    'Elephant' clearly does not refer to gender identity.
    If we're just referring to compliance with society's image of a male and female, surely gender is therefore meaningless? After all, these images by no means dictate standards to which individuals that pertain to a specific gender must comply; do others think otherwise? If stereotypes are meaningless, surely gender is therefore meaningless? It abandons all notions of individuality, implying that all male/female individuals must conform to a certain standard in order to qualify as their respective gender.
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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    But if you can say he can't identify as an elephant or a black woman because he is neither of those things I can just as easily say a man can't identify as a woman and vice versa. He's mocking them because what their talking about is nonsense. You're born with a penis or a vagina, that genitalia in no way dictates the way in which you have to act. You can be a man and like make up just as you can be a woman and like cage fighting. People should stop trying to create new labels for things and just live the way they want to live


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    Male and female labels were created by society. If someone does not feel they fit into a male or female label, why should they have to be forced to identify under one of these two labels?

    Piers Morgan was basically being a bigot, mocking two people's lifestyles that differ from his own. It is within his right to question their views but he was not doing that. He was being disrespectful to them and ridiculing them.
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    A scale measured by what, exactly?

    How can one have no gender, or fluctuate it at will if it's not a meaningful concept?

    It may also help to ask: how do you define gender?
    I dont know I would have to do more research but I accept that it is valid and I support them
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    (Original post by constantine2016)
    Male and female labels were created by society. If someone does not feel they fit into a male or female label, why should they have to be forced to identify under one of these two labels?

    Piers Morgan was basically being a bigot, mocking two people's lifestyles that differ from his own. It is within his right to question their views but he was not doing that. He was being disrespectful to them and ridiculing them.
    The labels were created by society to describe human biology, ie.
    • Male - of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.
    • Females - of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

    These are no random definitions, they are the definitions employed in the field of human biology.
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    (Original post by DontSweatIt)
    Why can't he identify as a elephant, then?

    Imo this is the definition of first world problems in all its ridiculousness.
    He was being rude, speaking over his guests, even talking over his colleague. He was shouting a rant rather than actually trying to have a reasonable discussion. These people didn't have to come on his ****-ass show but they did. He should have at least displayed common courtesy.

    Personally, I don't understand why everyone gives a crap what people choose to label their selves as. It doesn't affect our lives, so why should we be getting so concerned about this? Let people do what they want. It is a free country after all.
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    (Original post by constantine2016)
    He was being rude, speaking over his guests, even talking over his colleague. He was shouting a rant rather than actually trying to have a reasonable discussion. These people didn't have to come on his ****-ass show but they did. He should have at least displayed common courtesy.

    Personally, I don't understand why everyone gives a crap what people choose to label their selves as. It doesn't affect our lives, so why should we be getting so concerned about this? Let people do what they want. It is a free country after all.
    I don't object to people identifying as non-binary. I believe it as a matter worthy of discussion. Research beyond personal anecdotes should be conducted. To me, the concept of gender, as described by individuals around the Internet, is completely arbitrary and seems to rely on societal norms, which such individuals claim to reject, and label as meaningless. Why adopt the labels of male and female if it is distinct from biological sex?
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    The labels were created by society to describe human biology, ie.
    • Male - of or denoting the sex that produces gametes, especially spermatozoa, with which a female may be fertilized or inseminated to produce offspring.
    • Females - of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

    These are no random definitions, they are the definitions employed in the field of human biology.
    So what happens when a man gets castrated? According to your definitions, he is no longer a male then because a a person is a male only if they have a penis. He can't be female either because he doesn't have a vagina that produces eggs.

    Where do intersex people fit into these definitions?
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    (Original post by constantine2016)
    So what happens when a man gets castrated? According to your definitions, he is no longer a male then because a a person is a male only if they have a penis. He can't be female either because he doesn't have a vagina that produces eggs.

    Where do intersex people fit into these definitions?
    I admit that the definition was rather vague. You likely misunderstood the definition, it states the sex that can, not the sex that is distinguished by its ability to.

    Here's a more precise definition, from a slightly different source. (previous was from the Oxford dictionary, the following is from dictionary.com)
    • Male - a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei and normally having a penis, scrotum, and testicles, and developing hair on the face at adolescence; a boy or man.
    • Female - a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei and normally having a vagina, a uterus and ovaries, and developing at puberty a relatively rounded body and enlarged breasts, and retaining a beardless face; a girl or woman.

    Those with Klinefelter syndrome complicate the definition slightly, however, but they are generally accepted as male.
 
 
 
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