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Thoughts on Piers Morgan asking whether he could identify as an elephant Watch

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    (Original post by _gcx)
    What makes a gender a gender, then?

    Imagine a list of cheeses running from soft to hard. We can call this the 'cheese continuum'. Now, where would a rotary hammer fit into our continuum?

    That's correct! It wouldn't!

    Next, imagine another continuum, this time from solid ice, through liquid water and into water vapour. Where on this continuum would you place a pirate VHS of Walt Disney's 1995 animated feature Pocahontas?

    Right! It doesn't fit. You're doing great so far.


    Now we're going to ramp the difficulty up just a little bit. Imagine for a minute a continuum between male and female. Wait! Don't panic, thanks to the miracle of Abstract Thought™, you don't even have to believe in such a thing to conceive of it. Pretty neat, huh? Ok, so now where does 'elephant' fall within that continuum?

    Struggling to come up with an answer? Don't worry! The reason for this is simple: it doesn't fit. That's right, 'elephant' cannot fit on a male-female continuum, be it real or merely theoretical. This is because of reasons that should be really ****ing obvious.
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    If we're just referring to compliance with society's image of a male and female, surely gender is therefore meaningless? After all, these images by no means dictate standards to which individuals that pertain to a specific gender must comply; do others think otherwise? If stereotypes are meaningless, surely gender is therefore meaningless? It abandons all notions of individuality, implying that all male/female individuals must conform to a certain standard in order to qualify as their respective gender.
    No, it doesn't just relate to whether or not you conform to a stereotype. We aren't just referring to compliance with society's image of male and female.

    Gender is more psychological than biological, and is not fully understood. Perhaps instead of trying to pin it down and pigeonhole it so that it fits with our levels of ignorance we should stop being so uptight about it and understand that gender identity is a real issue for many people around the world.
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    At least he's not identifying as a pony. I'd like to identify as a toaster, would that be possible?
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    No, it doesn't just relate to whether or not you conform to a stereotype. We aren't just referring to compliance with society's image of male and female.

    Gender is more psychological than biological, and is not fully understood. Perhaps instead of trying to pin it down and pigeonhole it so that it fits with our levels of ignorance we should stop being so uptight about it and understand that gender identity is a real issue for many people around the world.
    What does it relate to then? Call me an idiot, but I honestly don't see how else one's gender identity can be derived.
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    Gender is a social construct but species isn't. So I don't think the argument quite follows.
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    Elephants aren't as intellectually sophisticated as us (to our knowledge) and probably have very little awareness of gender. Sounds exactly like Piers Morgan!
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    Why do people actually care if someone wants to call themselves male/female or anything in between? How does it affect you personally or anyone for that matter if someone decides they don't feel comfortable being a man and wishes to live life as a female or vice versa? Genuinely confused as to why some people feel so outraged by this they feel that they have a right to dictate how someone else lives their life and identifies themselves.
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    What does it relate to then? Call me an idiot, but I honestly don't see how else one's gender identity can be derived.
    You're (probably) not an idiot, don't worry. But the very way you refer to gender identify as being something 'derived' tells me that I think you're too far from getting to grips with this at all.

    How did you 'derive' your own gender? Did you look at the toys you played with as a child and you're favourite activities and think "Hmm, going by this chart it appears my gender identity is male"?

    I'm guessing not. Asking someone why they chose their gender identity, or how they "decided on" or "came up with" it, is as offensive as asking a homosexual why they decided to be gay.
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    The casual mockery of transpeople on the internet really needs to **** off already. These are people with a universally recognised medical condition. You can argue all day about whether it's a mental health problem or if they literally are a member of the gender they identify with, but these are people who need help, who face open scorn and derision on a daily basis, and are victims of an appallingly high suicide rate. Yet people think it's totally ok to disregard the wealth of scientific and medical research on the topic and reduce a serious issue to "LOL elephants" "LOL attack helicopters". You're not funny. You're not original. You are ****ing filth.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Imagine a list of cheeses running from soft to hard. We can call this the 'cheese continuum'. Now, where would a rotary hammer fit into our continuum?

    That's correct! It wouldn't!

    Next, imagine another continuum, this time from solid ice, through liquid water and into water vapour. Where on this continuum would you place a pirate VHS of Walt Disney's 1995 animated feature Pocahontas?

    Right! It doesn't fit. You're doing great so far.


    Now we're going to ramp the difficulty up just a little bit. Imagine for a minute a continuum between male and female. Wait! Don't panic, thanks to the miracle of Abstract Thought™, you don't even have to believe in such a thing to conceive of it. Pretty neat, huh? Ok, so now where does 'elephant' fall within that continuum?

    Struggling to come up with an answer? Don't worry! The reason for this is simple: it doesn't fit. That's right, 'elephant' cannot fit on a male-female continuum, be it real or merely theoretical. This is because of reasons that should be really ****ing obvious.
    It has yet to be defined, by anyone, what this "continuum" or spectrum looks like, quantified numerically, quantified by behaviour or psychological features, perhaps? To me, we're looking at two attributes, which are unambiguously biologically defined, and I see no possibility for any compromise inbetween save for mutation. So employing abstract thought that is clearly common sense™, I cannot conceive such a spectrum, as a scale has not been defined, nor has any point within the continuum. It's like being given a set of two letters that are clearly defined, let's call them A and B. Individuals claim that there are letters that fit inbetween these two characters, but people are unable to define exactly what these are, or their nature. Unless, you clocked me for an idiot who's argument consists exclusively of "hurr durr gender is binary". The one association I can get to grips, somewhat with, is agenderism. It's perfectly defined, and I accept that it could indeed be valid. However I see no empirical evidence to suggest the validity any gender identification that falls inbetween male and female, so I don't understand your patronising attitude, because this is certainly not "obvious". If it's something that is not yet fully understood, drop your patronising tone.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    You're (probably) not an idiot, don't worry. But the very way you refer to gender identify as being something 'derived' tells me that I think you're too far from getting to grips with this at all.

    How did you 'derive' your own gender? Did you look at the toys you played with as a child and you're favourite activities and think "Hmm, going by this chart it appears my gender identity is male"?

    I'm guessing not. Asking someone why they chose their gender identity, or how they "decided on" or "came up with" it, is as offensive as asking a homosexual why they decided to be gay.
    The state/attribute of being homosexual is derived from attraction to those of the same biological sex. I could have said "traits that characterise" a gender identity. (though your second paragraph seems to understand what I mean, contradicted by the third) I did not imply that there was an aspect of choice.

    I have yet to get my head around this concept of gender, as it just seems to be absurdly arbitrary and contrived, with a lot of uncertainty, so I'm just asking questions to this effect.
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    wiggle wiggle wiggle
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    It has yet to be defined, by anyone, what this "continuum" or spectrum looks like, quantified numerically, quantified by behaviour or psychological features, perhaps? To me, we're looking at two attributes, which are unambiguously biologically defined, and I see no possibility for any compromise inbetween save for mutation. So employing abstract thought that is clearly common sense™, I cannot conceive such a spectrum, as a scale has not been defined, nor has any point within the continuum. It's like being given a set of two letters that are clearly defined, let's call them A and B. Individuals claim that there are letters that fit inbetween these two characters, but people are unable to define exactly what these are, or their nature. Unless, you clocked me for an idiot who's argument consists exclusively of "hurr durr gender is binary". The one association I can get to grips, somewhat with, is agenderism. It's perfectly defined, and I accept that it could indeed be valid. However I see no empirical evidence to suggest the validity any gender identification that falls inbetween male and female, so I don't understand your patronising attitude, because this is certainly not "obvious". If it's something that is not yet fully understood, drop your patronising tone.
    I don't really know how to explain in a non-patronising way that, no, 'elephant' is not a gender. Just look at those words right there: "'elephant' is not a gender" - does that really sound like the sort of thing anybody should ever have to explain to another adult? Can you honestly imagine me spending my time getting down into the nitty gritty of why 'elephant' is not a valid category of gender? Of course not. Elephant is not a gender. There's your answer - make do.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    I don't really know how to explain in a non-patronising way that, no, 'elephant' is not a gender. Just look at those words right there: "'elephant' is not a gender" - does that really sound like the sort of thing anybody should ever have to explain to another adult? Can you honestly imagine me spending my time getting down into the nitty gritty of why 'elephant' is not a valid category of gender? Of course not. Elephant is not a gender. There's your answer - make do.
    My intent was to lead on to the question "what constitutes a gender"? A question that has not really been answered, at all, within your response.I was simply using an absolutely absurd example to present this question. Depending on how you define this scale, anything can lie on it. The number 453, the colour blue, a cat. A scale means absolutely nothing unless you define a measure of some kind, whether qualitative or quantitative, or any point on the scale. Your response compared this "scale" or "continuum", with some very clearly defined scale, that can quite easily be illustrated visually. The question needs to be answered before we can thoroughly research, or indeed discuss in depth, the concept of gender.
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    (Original post by _gcx)
    The state/attribute of being homosexual is derived from attraction to those of the same biological sex. I could have said "traits that characterise" a gender identity. (though your second paragraph seems to understand what I mean, contradicted by the third) I did not imply that there was an aspect of choice.

    I have yet to get my head around this concept of gender, as it just seems to be absurdly arbitrary and contrived, with a lot of uncertainty, so I'm just asking questions to this effect.
    People naturally want to group themselves to better understand themselves and cope with their lives, and most countries around the world have laws against discriminating against people because of what "group" they may be in, whether that group be something fairly precise or vague.

    The whole point is why is Morgan so keen to ridicule certain people for doing what basically everyone in the world does?

    Human beings and their minds are incredibly complex and vastly different, so you could argue that any attempt to group people by aspects of their thinking and thoughts is contrived. It doesn't stop it being helpful in many circumstances as long as the motive is not to discriminate.

    An imperfect model for analysing a complex system is sometimes the only option.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    These are people with a universally recognised medical condition... these are people who need help
    Granted.

    Some questions for you:

    (1) Where people come up with unique gender designations for themselves, is it actually to their benefit that society play along? If they're truly ill, is it best for them that everyone should collude in the thoughts that result from their illness?

    (2) Is it to the benefit of other people with the same problem that the above should happen?

    (3) Regardless of the above, should everyone be expected to play along with every tumblrite's special designation for their own identities on the basis that some percentage of them will have an actual illness (which should be treated anyway)?
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    I watched the interview and he has a point
    If fox identifies as non binary, why the need to transition from female to male? Surely that's pointless? He must identify as male really otherwise the surgery was a colossal waste of NHS funds
    That means he is not non binary st all
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    (Original post by LauraBMS)
    Why do people actually care if someone wants to call themselves male/female or anything in between? How does it affect you personally or anyone for that matter if someone decides they don't feel comfortable being a man and wishes to live life as a female or vice versa? Genuinely confused as to why some people feel so outraged by this they feel that they have a right to dictate how someone else lives their life and identifies themselves.
    I don't think that's what people are outraged about. If a male person wants to wear lipstick, makeup and dresses, call himself Jane and have (self-funded) surgery to look like a woman then that's perfectly fine. I'll think it's a bit weird but it's his choice at the end of the day, and nobody else's business. Even if he decides to live life in the forest as an elephant, that's also up to him.

    Where it becomes an issue is when people start expecting special treatment for it. For example recently, a male person who was in prison for committing rape decided that he identified as a woman and demanded to be transferred to a female prison, a decision which was upheld. This defeats the purpose of having sex-segregated prisons in the first place. The same applies to segregated public toilets, changing rooms, sports competitions etc.

    It's one thing to live out your private life in your own way, and quite another thing to just be able to pick and choose which set of rules apply to you.
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    I don't like him either, but I've always been of the opinion that this new 'identity' trend is opening Pandora's box. First gender/sex, then race, what next?

    People keep making up these identities for themselves to feel unique. There are men and there are women. There are straights and there are gays (and some people in-between). There's no need to convolute matters and invent entirely new genders and sexualities just because there's variation between archetypical norms. Variation is expected. It doesn't mean a person has to be something else.

    Society shouldn't also be expected to play along with what are essentially delusions and made up words. Again, it's opening Pandora's box. Where do we draw the line? With the exception of genuine mental conditions, is there really any difference between a male that "identifies" as a female, a white person that "identifies" as a black person, and a human that "identifies" as an elephant?

    "Call me Dumbo."
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    The casual mockery of transpeople on the internet really needs to **** off already.
    The internet mocks transgerism because the transgender movement acts like a bunch of second rate fascists whereby even questioning the scientific validity of the concept of a transgender is seen as morally evil. What adds insult to injury is that transgenderism implies there is such a thing as a male and a female brain which is totally at odds with one of the underlying principles of feminism. The left is tearing itself apart in its intellectual bankruptcy and lashes out in the most wild and hysterical manner, as you are doing here because it is so insecure of itself.
 
 
 
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