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It can be OK not to vote Watch

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    Most of the time, when young people urge their contemporaries to get out and vote, they do so because they want them to vote against the Tories. They know that if it was illegal not to vote many more young people would do it, and many of them would likely vote for left-wing parties. I'd just like to raise the point that it can in fact be OK not to vote.

    The idea of not voting out of protest is a really stupid idea. It will achieve nothing. However, there is such as thing as being genuinely ambivalent. This is not the same thing as indifference. One may know very much about UK politics, but they may feel that they can't gauge who's pros and cons are greater or smaller than the others. I am someone who feels this kind of ambivalence.

    For example, I support the Tories because I think they are easily the best option for a Brexit deal that works for us, I trust them more to keep our streets safe from terrorism, they will have the best and most sensible policies towards immigration, they will the do the best at keeping the UK's economy booming, the amounts they spend on foreign aid are about right.

    However, their treatment of the NHS, although perhaps not as bad Labour claim, is still very worrying. I think they take austerity too far and cut some very important funding. Their attitudes towards drugs and pornography and their attitudes towards internet privacy etc seem very illiberal to me. Their plan for new grammar schools seems really stupid to me. They continue to cosy up with Saudi Arabia and they sell them huge amounts of arms.

    I like Labour's attitudes towards public services such as the NHS. I like their policies about drugs. I think it's a decent idea to scrap tuition fees. I like the idea of them taxing the rich more, but I am worried this will just mean lots of wealthy people will simply evacuate the country. I think Labour have good attitudes towards offshore accounts. I think the idea of raising the minimum wage to £10 an hour is a very good one.

    On the other hand, I think Labour's attitudes towards national security are feeble, their wishy-washy approach to immigration could be very very damaging, I think the amounts of money they wish to spend might be way too much for our economy to handle. I'm worried that Corbyn and his cronies would run the UK like a student union. I'm very concerned that they will really drive a crusade in support political correctness, and they may restrain free speech even further than they already did under Blair and Brown. I fear that they won't address concerns about the spread of Islam, that they will implement stuff like Harriet Harmon's proposed Equality Bill, that they will act upon absurd rubbish from contemporary feminism, such as the wage gap myth, that they may even start a rampage against pornography, strip clubs, prostitution etc on the basis that they believe it to be sexist, must like they did against The Sun's Page 3 and "lads mags".

    Then there is a further element: how much I trust Corbyn and May to be strong leaders. Well, I can say I trust May far more. I also think the Tory party works much more smoothly than Labour currently does.

    As for the other parties... the Lib Dems are a shambles and I find Tim Farron unbearable, the Greens are far too left, and UKIP are a far too right (and a joke)>
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    Voting in the general election is a bit like trying to choose which disease you would most like to die from. I dont vote.
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    (Original post by Laomedeia)
    Voting in the general election is a bit like trying to choose which disease you would most like to die from. I dont vote.
    Indifference due to general contempt is another perfectly good reason not to vote.
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    I am always gobsmacked at how forgetful the general public are when it comes to politics. You cite Tory's strong and stable leadership and their ability to bring a good Brexit as reasons for supporting them. Yet their leadership is so strong and stable they called a snap election despite saying they wouldn't and therefore ending Brexit negociations before they already started. Given that the clock is ticking towards the 2 year deadline, instead of negotiating hard, they are playing school yard politics. The Tories don't give a sh1t about the country. They only care about themselves. This election isn't about doing right by the country, it is about shutting down the opposition so that they can basically do what they like. And we only need to look at dictatorships to see how that ends up.

    Everything good that has happened to this country in the last 20 years is going to be undone - fox hunting, human rights, equality rights, you name it - it is under threat.

    Strong and stable? My @rse.
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    What about your local candidates? They are, after all, the ones you actually vote for (although you might actually live in one of the party leaders' constituencies). Who will do the best for your area? Who will make your views heard in Parliament? Ambivalence towards the parties might make sense as a reason for not voting if this were a Presidential election, but that's not how the British electoral system works, as much as the current party leaders like to think it does.

    There's always the option of submitting a spoiled ballot if you really don't want to pick a candidate.
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    (Original post by BatterseaPower)
    Most of the time, when young people urge their contemporaries to get out and vote, they do so because they want them to vote against the Tories. They know that if it was illegal not to vote many more young people would do it, and many of them would likely vote for left-wing parties. I'd just like to raise the point that it can in fact be OK not to vote.

    The idea of not voting out of protest is a really stupid idea. It will achieve nothing. However, there is such as thing as being genuinely ambivalent. This is not the same thing as indifference. One may know very much about UK politics, but they may feel that they can't gauge who's pros and cons are greater or smaller than the others. I am someone who feels this kind of ambivalence.

    For example, I support the Tories because I think they are easily the best option for a Brexit deal that works for us, I trust them more to keep our streets safe from terrorism, they will have the best and most sensible policies towards immigration, they will the do the best at keeping the UK's economy booming, the amounts they spend on foreign aid are about right.

    However, their treatment of the NHS, although perhaps not as bad Labour claim, is still very worrying. I think they take austerity too far and cut some very important funding. Their attitudes towards drugs and pornography and their attitudes towards internet privacy etc seem very illiberal to me. Their plan for new grammar schools seems really stupid to me. They continue to cosy up with Saudi Arabia and they sell them huge amounts of arms.

    I like Labour's attitudes towards public services such as the NHS. I like their policies about drugs. I think it's a decent idea to scrap tuition fees. I like the idea of them taxing the rich more, but I am worried this will just mean lots of wealthy people will simply evacuate the country. I think Labour have good attitudes towards offshore accounts. I think the idea of raising the minimum wage to £10 an hour is a very good one.

    On the other hand, I think Labour's attitudes towards national security are feeble, their wishy-washy approach to immigration could be very very damaging, I think the amounts of money they wish to spend might be way too much for our economy to handle. I'm worried that Corbyn and his cronies would run the UK like a student union. I'm very concerned that they will really drive a crusade in support political correctness, and they may restrain free speech even further than they already did under Blair and Brown. I fear that they won't address concerns about the spread of Islam, that they will implement stuff like Harriet Harmon's proposed Equality Bill, that they will act upon absurd rubbish from contemporary feminism, such as the wage gap myth, that they may even start a rampage against pornography, strip clubs, prostitution etc on the basis that they believe it to be sexist, must like they did against The Sun's Page 3 and "lads mags".

    Then there is a further element: how much I trust Corbyn and May to be strong leaders. Well, I can say I trust May far more. I also think the Tory party works much more smoothly than Labour currently does.

    As for the other parties... the Lib Dems are a shambles and I find Tim Farron unbearable, the Greens are far too left, and UKIP are a far too right (and a joke)>
    Not this time.
    Normally you are voting to see who screws you over the least, so voting is a bit of a waste as you're getting ****ed regardless of who is in power.

    However this time Corbyn would cripple this country before his term ended. Just ask anyone who lived through the 70's about how things were back then with the Unions.....
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    get out and vote
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    (Original post by Beth_H)
    What about your local candidates?
    What about those of us who live in safe seats, where I live it would be very easy to forget there was an election on, the closest I have seen to campaigning is one generic letter through the door, signed by Theresa May, that doesn't even mention the local candidate.

    What benefit does spoiling a ballot have over not turning up, other than a perverse sense of moral superiority?


    I've actually been pretty disgusted by the level of shame involved in getting people out to vote in recent elections. Voting is not the only way that people can engage in politics and nor should it be.
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    (Original post by mojojojo101)
    What about those of us who live in safe seats, where I live it would be very easy to forget there was an election on, the closest I have seen to campaigning is one generic letter through the door, signed by Theresa May, that doesn't even mention the local candidate.

    What benefit does spoiling a ballot have over not turning up, other than a perverse sense of moral superiority?


    I've actually been pretty disgusted by the level of shame involved in getting people out to vote in recent elections. Voting is not the only way that people can engage in politics and nor should it be.
    If everyone who lives in a safe seat decides not to vote because a particular party always wins, then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy and nothing will ever change. I'm not saying that a seat that's been securely won by a particular party is suddenly going to change hands (although Sarah Olney did overturn a 23,000 vote Tory majority in Richmond last year), but the more people vote for opposing parties, the more people feel like there's an eventual possibility of change, and so more people vote for them next time.

    I personally think that ballot spoiling is a pointless exercise, but so is not voting at all. As you say, voting is not the only way to engage in politics, but it is the only way to have a meaningful say in who sits in Parliament for the next five years making our laws, so it's pretty far up the list of things that someone with an interest in politics should do, in my opinion.

    Frankly, if you can't even be bothered to go out and put a cross in a box on a piece of paper, I would question the extent to which you can call yourself politically engaged.
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    (Original post by BatterseaPower)
    .)>
    I think what you could do is spoil your ballot. This would indicate that there is no one worth voting for. Or you think the FPTP system is unfair. I'm not a fan of not voting full stop.
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    If you don't vote, you have no right to complain about this countries politics
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    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    However this time Corbyn would cripple this country before his term ended. Just ask anyone who lived through the 70's about how things were back then with the Unions.....
    I am no fan of Corbyn, but do you not think May is doing a pretty good of crippling the country? We are marching towards a hard Brexit and meanwhile the NHS will be shown to be massively in debt, education is on the brink and social services are in tatters.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    I am no fan of Corbyn, but do you not think May is doing a pretty good of crippling the country? We are marching towards a hard Brexit and meanwhile the NHS will be shown to be massively in debt, education is on the brink and social services are in tatters.
    How?!
    She's following through on a referendum she didn't call.
    She's finally signed off Heathrow expansion after 50+ years.
    And signed off on Trident.

    How's she crippling the country again?

    As for the NHS - that was broken decades ago. It needs to fold and be private as it can't function as part of the cs. Education was trashed by Blair wanting to send morons to uni and devaluing degrees, and the social services need to stop paying scum to fire out kids 24/7 because if funding of £125 billion isn't enough then wtf...
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    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    How?!
    She's following through on a referendum she didn't call.
    She's finally signed off Heathrow expansion after 50+ years.
    And signed off on Trident.
    Ha - the three things that will cripple our country.
    - Brexit will cause so much uncertainty left right and centre we can only hope that the resulting deal looks more or less as things are right now. Any illusions that we can control immigration are pipe dreams. And our international obligations, be it to the EU or further afield mean that any idea of UK National Sovereignty are similarly non-existent. So when all is done and dusted, my prediction is that we will spend billions on a deal that sees us more or less stay the same as we are now, but with less influence over things that will happen to us. You can't play tennis if you don't join a club.
    - I would be surprised if Heathrow happens. Sure, it has been signed off, but there will be a new government before the bulldozers move in, not to mention the raft of legal battles that will be fought over the fine detail. It wouldn't surprise me if the political landscape shifts significantly before construction starts. Just look at the massive U-turn the government are signalling on diesel cars.
    - Trident - we don't need trident and we certainly can't afford it. But it plays into the same rose tinted spectacles the Brexiters like to don far too frequently, thinking we are still a significant player on the global stage. We aren't. We are the US's puppy. If we ever fell out with the US we would be no one, Trident or not.
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    I want everyone to vote BUT..... if you generally don't have a clue about politics and policies then it would be better if you don't until you learn about them.


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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Ha - the three things that will cripple our country.
    - Brexit will cause so much uncertainty left right and centre we can only hope that the resulting deal looks more or less as things are right now. Any illusions that we can control immigration are pipe dreams. And our international obligations, be it to the EU or further afield mean that any idea of UK National Sovereignty are similarly non-existent. So when all is done and dusted, my prediction is that we will spend billions on a deal that sees us more or less stay the same as we are now, but with less influence over things that will happen to us. You can't play tennis if you don't join a club.
    And what are you basing any of that on?
    We can control immigration just like any other country if we wanted to...but not whilst in the EU. Do you see Australia being overran by immigrants?
    And you forget that Merkel runs the EU. Germany will take a huge blow if it screws us on Brexit and with the Greece mess not being sorted and Italy looking like it might leave, she can't afford to be stupid.


    - I would be surprised if Heathrow happens. Sure, it has been signed off, but there will be a new government before the bulldozers move in, not to mention the raft of legal battles that will be fought over the fine detail. It wouldn't surprise me if the political landscape shifts significantly before construction starts. Just look at the massive U-turn the government are signalling on diesel cars.
    We should take the Chinese stance on this and flatten the houses. The expansion has been debated for about 50 years so they are stupid to have not moved by now.
    Also the benefits to the economy would be huge.

    - Trident - we don't need trident and we certainly can't afford it. But it plays into the same rose tinted spectacles the Brexiters like to don far too frequently, thinking we are still a significant player on the global stage. We aren't. We are the US's puppy. If we ever fell out with the US we would be no one, Trident or not.
    And this proves you're an elbow eater.
    What the holy **** are you basing that on? We don't need it because??? What has changed exactly in the last 50 years. I'm guessing you haven't realised more states are aiming to get the bomb and inevitably most countries will end up with the ability to make one.
    But hey. I guess you must have some serious experience within UK forces to know what we need in our arsenal Mr Armchair General.
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    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    And what are you basing any of that on?
    We can control immigration just like any other country if we wanted to...but not whilst in the EU. Do you see Australia being overran by immigrants?
    And you forget that Merkel runs the EU. Germany will take a huge blow if it screws us on Brexit and with the Greece mess not being sorted and Italy looking like it might leave, she can't afford to be stupid.
    You are right. But we are not Australia and they do have an immigrant problem specifically from the Chinese. Unfortunately, the Chinese in question have tonnes of dosh so the government turns a blind eye. But it is having a massive (and some might say) negative impact on cities like Syndey.

    As for us. We can control immigration. We can control non-EU immigration. Now if we bear in mind that current government policy is to limit total immigration to 10,000 a year, why is it that 150,000 non-EU immigrants arrived last year? They are controllable. The answer is simple. Quite bluntly, controlling immigration isn't as simple as you think it is.

    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    We should take the Chinese stance on this and flatten the houses.
    And if that is the case, that means government can come along and flatten your house. Obviously, this being China, you would get no compensation and if you protested, you would be locked up and never seen again. Very progressive.


    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    We don't need it because???
    Simple facts. A nuclear deterrent is only useful against a country. So any terrorist dogma is irrelevant. Terrorists couldn't care less about the nuclear threat. And with the majority of the world getting on fine without. So if they are doing without, why can't we?

    The Brexit position is interesting. On the one hand, it is inward looking focusing on sovereignty. But on the other, it is outward looking, but not from a cooperating point of view, more a "you had better listen to use cause we have bombs" kind of message. Since when did that get anyone anywhere? I mean seriously. That is just being a bully. Surely we are better than that?

    PS We don't have an empire any more - haven't had for a long time. The quicker we get over that, the quicker we can move forward.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    You are right. But we are not Australia and they do have an immigrant problem specifically from the Chinese. Unfortunately, the Chinese in question have tonnes of dosh so the government turns a blind eye. But it is having a massive (and some might say) negative impact on cities like Syndey.

    As for us. We can control immigration. We can control non-EU immigration. Now if we bear in mind that current government policy is to limit total immigration to 10,000 a year, why is it that 150,000 non-EU immigrants arrived last year? They are controllable. The answer is simple. Quite bluntly, controlling immigration isn't as simple as you think it is.
    That is something I've always wondered and can only think it is to do with EU Human Rights (right to a family *******s), and ex colonial countries.
    However I still think immigration is simple to solve - just have strict visas....but I suspect no one wants to limit immigration as it fixes inflation and some huge issues that no party wants to tackle e.g. changing the benefit culture.


    And if that is the case, that means government can come along and flatten your house. Obviously, this being China, you would get no compensation and if you protested, you would be locked up and never seen again. Very progressive.
    Their economic growth speaks for itself sadly. I think the West is in for a brutal wake up call when we look at how human rights can stifle economic growth. It will probably be a case of pick one, not both.



    Simple facts. A nuclear deterrent is only useful against a country. So any terrorist dogma is irrelevant. Terrorists couldn't care less about the nuclear threat. And with the majority of the world getting on fine without. So if they are doing without, why can't we?

    The Brexit position is interesting. On the one hand, it is inward looking focusing on sovereignty. But on the other, it is outward looking, but not from a cooperating point of view, more a "you had better listen to use cause we have bombs" kind of message. Since when did that get anyone anywhere? I mean seriously. That is just being a bully. We don't need bully boy weapons.
    And countries are still an issue. Look at what Russia is trying to do in Ukraine. And who is doing fine without it exactly?
    As for "look at me I have nukes", it isn't about nukes per se, but about the military might of a country and the "we have expertise and knowledge".
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    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    That is something I've always wondered and can only think it is to do with EU Human Rights (right to a family *******s), and ex colonial countries.
    However I still think immigration is simple to solve - just have strict visas....but I suspect no one wants to limit immigration as it fixes inflation and some huge issues that no party wants to tackle e.g. changing the benefit culture.
    It is business that is driving immigration. As long as the country is doing well economically, immigration will continue. Getting people off benefits is not going to fill the hole that is the lack of highly skilled IT workers for example.

    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    Their economic growth speaks for itself sadly. I think the West is in for a brutal wake up call when we look at how human rights can stifle economic growth. It will probably be a case of pick one, not both.
    Indeed. But all China have done in the last 20 years is effectively go through the industrial revolution we went through 100 years ago. We are not an advanced economy. We no longer make widgets and won't do whilst there are other countries around the world that pay their workers peanuts. The risk to us is that countries like China and India are catching up fast and will soon be able to compete on the same level technically but with lower waged employees.

    (Original post by Jimbo1234)
    And who is doing fine without it exactly
    Well everyone. Where do you start? Germany, Scandinavia, Italy, Spain, Brazil, Argentina, Australia....

    We are not the Ukraine so comparisons are not helpful.
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    I completely disagree. There is no reason not to vote. A democratic system only thrives when people make their voices heard.

    If you're not planning on voting because you live in a constituency that is not going to go to you, then vote anyway for your party and the other leaders will see that you voted for that party and try and win you over. It may not be your party but at least your getting near the policies you wanted.

    If you're not planning on voting because you live in a constituency where your party is safe, then vote for your party anyway. Not only are you using your vote to show a higher percentage for your party but there have been cases where "safe seats" have been lost because people haven't gone out to vote for them.

    And if you're not planning on voting because you hate them all and don't want any of them to win, then go on voting day and spoil your ballot. Not only is it much more fun than sitting at home and complaining on a student forum but when the results come out you're opinion will still be shown and taken into consideration by the parties.

    There are people in countries risking their life for the chance to vote and have their voices heard. Be happy you live in a place where there is a good democracy.
 
 
 
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