Liberal Democracies are under attack. Will Millennials (under 30) do nothing? Watch

Reformed2010
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Putin in Russia. Erdogan in Turkey. Trump in America. Orban in Hungary. Now in the UK, Theresa May absorbs Farage and UKIP right-wing populism politics into our wings to consolidate her power. Trying to deny Parliament a proper vote on the Brexit term, having the right-tabloid press demonise Judges from the Supreme Court for 'daring' to exercise our hard-earned rights to have the Executive held accountable through law and order. Yet people are just shrugging. Why?

Research from Political scientist (https://qz.com/848031/harvard-resear...-in-democracy/) have shown that people under 30 are more likely to think it's not important to live in a Liberal Democracy. Why are people of my generation so happy to stand to attention and bow, will Millennials do nothing?

This is worrying.

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Quirky Object
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There was a really good article in The Guardian this weekend (yep, I read The Guardian, don't judge) on this whole issue of youth apathy, and I think it made a lot of sense. There's this widespread idea that young people don't care about politics, mostly due to low turnout in elections, yet young people are still heavily involved in other types of political action, most prominently direct campaigning with the use of technology. Traditional political engagement is off-putting for young people, because it appears so "pale, male and stale" and because a lot of young people are disconnected and do not think their vote makes a difference. This is a vicious cycle, since the more old people vote compared with young people, the more gerontocratic politics is going to become. As for liberal democracy, you can't expect concepts and language which were so important to the Cold War generation to remain important forever and ever in the abstract, and young people are often more radical anyway.

I personally do view voting as a duty and I do intend to participate fully in traditional politics when I'm old enough, but conflating disconnect with flippant apathy is just plain wrong and will only serve to alienate young people more.
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Reformed2010
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(Original post by Sonechka)
There was a really good article in The Guardian this weekend (yep, I read The Guardian, don't judge)
I am a signed up member of the The Guardian.

(Original post by Sonechka)
There's this widespread idea that young people don't care about politics, mostly due to low turnout in elections, yet young people are still heavily involved in other types of political action, most prominently direct campaigning with the use of technology.
No, I actually agree! I'm part of the millennial generation myself and don't have to read surveys and academic research to know people of my generation are into political issues but no party politics.

(Original post by Sonechka)
Traditional political engagement is off-putting for young people, because it appears so "pale, male and stale
Agreed. I'm Black and Gay, hardly see issues that impact me in a certain way seriously taken up in the UK. Unless it's to do with stop and search or same-sex marriage.

(Original post by Sonechka)
As for liberal democracy, you can't expect concepts and language which were so important to the Cold War generation to remain important forever and ever in the abstract, and young people are often more radical anyway.
That's a really good point, I never thought about it in that way. As time goes on, it's going to prove harder for each generation to have an emotive reaction to threats to democracies because they are so abstract.

(Original post by Sonechka)
I personally do view voting as a duty and I do intend to participate fully in traditional politics when I'm old enough, but conflating disconnect with flippant apathy is just plain wrong and will only serve to alienate young people more.
That makes me smile. As an older millennial (25) I do wonder what can be done within 10 years to get youth turnout higher. Many people suggest ideas like PR voting, online voting, votes for 16/17 and so on. But in order to get that we need to elect MPs who want it.

So basically, we need 'better' people to stand for MP who are give more attention to issues impacting young people?
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pol pot noodles
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(Original post by Reformed2010)
Putin in Russia. Erdogan in Turkey. Trump in America. Orban in Hungary. Now in the UK, Theresa May absorbs Farage and UKIP right-wing populism politics into our wings to consolidate her power. Trying to deny Parliament a proper vote on the Brexit term, having the right-tabloid press demonise Judges from the Supreme Court for 'daring' to exercise our hard-earned rights to have the Executive held accountable through law and order. Yet people are just shrugging. Why?

Research from Political scientist (https://qz.com/848031/harvard-resear...-in-democracy/) have shown that people under 30 are more likely to think it's not important to live in a Liberal Democracy. Why are people of my generation so happy to stand to attention and bow, will Millennials do nothing?

This is worrying.

Russia and Turkey have never been liberal democracies.

Parliament has no right to vote on the terms of Brexit. May hardly ordered the press to attack judges, and the press is thoroughly entitled to criticise judicial rulings. The notion that these incidents prove anything is ridiculous.
The issue is that the greatest threats to 'liberal democracy' are from millenials themselves. Of course they don't think it's important to live in a liberal democracy. They want free speech monitored and dissenting views oppressed. They condone violence in the name of 'fighting fascism', and fascists are simply everyone that disagrees with them. Conservative politicians are hounded and threatened. They've posed a bigger threat to western liberal democracy than anything May or Trump has done.
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Jammy Duel
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TL;DR: people OP doesn't like keep winning elections and he doesn't like it.
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SHallowvale
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
TL;DR: people OP doesn't like keep winning elections and he doesn't like it.
People normally use TL;DR in response to a very long posts that aren't particularly concise or to the point. The OPs post was two short paragraphs with two very clear points.

The fact that you don't seem to be able to understand even that is rather telling.
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Reformed2010
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(Original post by pol pot noodles)
Parliament has no right to vote on the terms of Brexit
Yes, it does. The referendum was advisory and the terms of Brexit are absolutely in the hands of the UK Parliament. As it is in the hands of the other 27 EU member state parliaments and the EU Parliament. Now you may think they politically should not have the right to vote on the terms but I disagree. Good we have UK Supreme Courts to be the arbitrator on our Constitution.

(Original post by pol pot noodles)
Russia and Turkey have never been liberal democracies
(Original post by pol pot noodles)
May hardly ordered the press to attack judges, and the press is thoroughly entitled to criticise judicial rulings
I never said that and that was not my point. But please, keep putting up strawman arguments. Whatever makes you feel better.

(Original post by pol pot noodles)
They want free speech monitored and dissenting views oppressed.
What. A. Joke.

The PM of the UK got in front of live TV and announced her reasoning for calling an election was because Parliament was doing it's job of wanting to debate, scrutinise and vote on the term of Brexit. She, disagreeing with this function saw it would be in her party political interest in calling for an election because she'll get a massive parliamentary majority and would be able to get a deal that faced little opposition. This is exactly what Authoritarian leaders do post 1945. It's been heavily researched. Google it. Putin, Trump, Erdogan and so on use constitutional legal means to win power. Their supporters are able to defend their Authoritarian leaders right to claim power because of their legal means of achieving it and then they slowly start to chip away at the constitutional institutions. Unlike the USA the UK lacks a codified constitution and there is little to constrain an Authoritarian executive. That is why Liberals and Democrats like myself are worried.

(Original post by pol pot noodles)
Russia and Turkey have never been liberal democracies.
By the definition of a free and fair electoral democracy, Russia and Turkey were once classified as Liberal Democracies.

(Original post by pol pot noodles)
They've posed a bigger threat to western liberal democracy than anything May or Trump has done.
Trump, the man who called for his political opponent to be locked up and denounced the principle of an independent Judiciary is less a threat to Liberal Democracy than Millennials. :lolwut:
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Jammy Duel
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(Original post by SHallowvale)
People normally use TL;DR in response to a very long posts that aren't particularly concise or to the point. The OPs post was two short paragraphs with two very clear points.

The fact that you don't seem to be able to understand even that is rather telling.
It's significantly longer than "waaaah, I'm not getting my own way" which is ultimately what it comes down to. That and the old "if the majority agree with me it's democracy, if they don't it's populism".

Further the point made is largely mooted when you actually look at the data: the young are the ones holding the opinion of OP (that touted as the liberal democratic position) while the older voters are the ones holding the contrary position (the one being touted as authoritarian and dictatorial).

This is just another thread where the vocal minority cry about being on the wrong side of history.

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Reformed2010
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(Original post by Jammy Duel)
It's significantly longer than "waaaah, I'm not getting my own way" which is ultimately what it comes down to. That and the old "if the majority agree with me it's democracy, if they don't it's populism".

Further the point made is largely mooted when you actually look at the data: the young are the ones holding the opinion of OP (that touted as the liberal democratic position) while the older voters are the ones holding the contrary position (the one being touted as authoritarian and dictatorial).

This is just another thread where the vocal minority cry about being on the wrong side of history.

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Why don't you respond to my actual points rather than respond to things you pretend I have stated? Waaah, I'm not getting my own way? This has to be the most immature, unintellectual bunch of rubbish I've read today on TSR. We are (supposed to be) a Liberal Democracy. If political parties or politicians dislike this, then they should be open and honest when they violate our form of government. You call it Waaah, I'm not getting my own way. I call it a citizen holding elected officials to uphold Liberal Democratic principles. So yes, when the right-wing media try to tarnish Judges not on the merit of their judicial judgements but because of their sexuality and my elected government does not come out in their defence. I will waaah all the **** I like until people like you learn what it means to be a Liberal electoral democracy.
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harrybean
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People need to see though that leaving the EU let's us take back our democracy, instead of letting most of our laws be made by unelected commissioners in the EU. May's approach makes sense - we want out & that's what we voted for!
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pol pot noodles
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(Original post by Reformed2010)
Yes, it does. The referendum was advisory and the terms of Brexit are absolutely in the hands of the UK Parliament. As it is in the hands of the other 27 EU member state parliaments and the EU Parliament. Now you may think they politically should not have the right to vote on the terms but I disagree. Good we have UK Supreme Courts to be the arbitrator on our Constitution.
The referendum was indeed advisory. Parliament never-the-less voted to trigger article 50. The terms of Brexit is now in the hands of the Government. Parliament doesn't get a vote on everything, all the time, just because. It's already delegated it's will to the Government.
And the Supreme Court hasn't said anything to the contrary, so as it stands, like I said, Parliament doesn't have a right to vote on the terms of Brexit unless the Tories for some reason allow a bill stating as such to pass through.

(Original post by Reformed2010)
I never said that and that was not my point. But please, keep putting up strawman arguments. Whatever makes you feel better.
Your OP was about how certain instances were threatening the concept of liberal democracy. I've pointed out why that's nonsense. Russia and Turkey aren't liberal democracies. Why would authoritarian strongman leaders taking charge in those countries be instances of 'liberal democracies under attack'?
The press has every right to criticise the judiciary. The judiciary isn't sacred and inherently perfect.
So me directly refuting your moronic points is a strawman? Sure....

(Original post by Reformed2010)
What. A. Joke.
You're right, things like no-platforming and antifa thugs attacking conservative speakers is a joke and shouldn't be happening, but it does. The vast majority of instances of 'suppression' of political views, both online and in the real world, are the left doing it against the right. The liberal left would happily censor and suppress all conservative views if it could, and you know it.

(Original post by Reformed2010)
The PM of the UK got in front of live TV and announced her reasoning for calling an election was because Parliament was doing it's job of wanting to debate, scrutinise and vote on the term of Brexit. She, disagreeing with this function saw it would be in her party political interest in calling for an election because she'll get a massive parliamentary majority and would be able to get a deal that faced little opposition. This is exactly what Authoritarian leaders do post 1945. It's been heavily researched. Google it. Putin, Trump, Erdogan and so on use constitutional legal means to win power. Their supporters are able to defend their Authoritarian leaders right to claim power because of their legal means of achieving it and then they slowly start to chip away at the constitutional institutions. Unlike the USA the UK lacks a codified constitution and there is little to constrain an Authoritarian executive. That is why Liberals and Democrats like myself are worried.
What's been heavily researched? That politicians use legal political powers? Theresa May calling a snap election because she thinks she can win a large majority and thus govern more easily is meant to be proof of something? There have been 5 'true' snap elections since WW2, and loads of other elections where the PM timed it for when they were riding high in the polls. Blair did it twice, so did Thatcher.
And Trump? What authoritarian stuff has he done exactly?
This is some weak stuff. Bill Maher summed it up when Trump won; liberals don't do themselves any favours by crying wolf too much.

(Original post by Reformed2010)
By the definition of a free and fair electoral democracy, Russia and Turkey were once classified as Liberal Democracies.
When? When have Russia or Turkey ever been 'free and fair'? I suppose Turkey might have been before the first of it's six military coup attempts, but that was long before Erdogan was in town. I have a hard time believing Russia has ever not been politically corrupt.

(Original post by Reformed2010)
Trump, the man who called for his political opponent to be locked up and denounced the principle of an independent Judiciary is less a threat to Liberal Democracy than Millennials. :lolwut:
Clinton? He called for her to be locked up because she's accused of a crime, not because she's his political opponent. That's a daft example.
I also don't recall Trump getting triggered by the thought of Milo Yiannopoulos speaking and rioting through Berkeley. He does say mean things on twitter though, so swings and roundabouts apparently according to the left.
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Quirky Object
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(Original post by Reformed2010)
I am a signed up member of the The Guardian.

No, I actually agree! I'm part of the millennial generation myself and don't have to read surveys and academic research to know people of my generation are into political issues but no party politics.

Agreed. I'm Black and Gay, hardly see issues that impact me in a certain way seriously taken up in the UK. Unless it's to do with stop and search or same-sex marriage.

That's a really good point, I never thought about it in that way. As time goes on, it's going to prove harder for each generation to have an emotive reaction to threats to democracies because they are so abstract.

That makes me smile. As an older millennial (25) I do wonder what can be done within 10 years to get youth turnout higher. Many people suggest ideas like PR voting, online voting, votes for 16/17 and so on. But in order to get that we need to elect MPs who want it.

So basically, we need 'better' people to stand for MP who are give more attention to issues impacting young people?
Haha apologies, I assumed you were some disgruntled older person annoyed at those darned youngsters for ostensibly not caring about politics 😂

I think we're just in a post-recession period of discontent and disillusionment at the moment. This was arguably the worst crisis since the Depression, and the Depression soon led to World War 2. It's not surprising that young people especially are unhappy with the political climate in this situation. I think decent levels of political participation might return after we get a bit of good governance (not sure when that'll be in the UK since May can't do anything but U-turns and posturing and everyone else is utterly hopeless, buuut...)
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