careless driving but not dangerous driving...

Hi guys,

Not to be rude to anyone but the previous posters are wrong (well not really technical enough).

Basically in law there are a range of offences that a driver can be charged with, and the a very short list (in order of seriousness):

Murder
Manslaughter (very rare to get done for these two whilst driving)
Causing death by dangerous driving
Dangerous driving
Causing death by careless driving when under the influence of drink or drugs
Carless driving (and driving without due care and attention)

There are others but these are the main ones you'll hear about.

Right now to the difference between careless driving and dangerous driving.

Basically it is about how bad the driving is.

So dangerous driving is defined as:

When you drive at a standard that falls far below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver and it would be obvious to a competent and careful driver that driving in that way would be dangerous.

Careless driving is much simpler:

When you drive at a standard which falls below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver.

So the important difference is one is "far below" the other simply "below".

Now what the hell does this mean in practice?!

Well basically the following are a list of what the CPS thing are pretty dangerous things to do and are likely to lead to driving being considered as dangerous:

# Racing or competitive driving.
# Speed, which is highly inappropriate for the prevailing road or traffic conditions.
# Aggressive driving, such as sudden lane changes, cutting into a line of vehicles or driving much too close to the vehicle in front.
# Disregard of traffic lights and other road signs, which, on an objective analysis, would appear to be deliberate; or disregard of warnings from fellow passengers.
# Overtaking which could not have been carried out safely.
# Driving a vehicle with a load which presents a danger to other road users.
# Where the driver is suffering from impaired ability such as having an arm or leg in plaster, or impaired eyesight.
# Driving when too tired to stay awake.
# Driving with actual knowledge of a dangerous defect on a vehicle.
# Using a mobile phone whether as a phone or to compose or read text messages.

Examples of things that could be classed as being careless:

* using a hand held mobile telephone while the vehicle is moving;
* tuning a car radio;
* reading a newspaper/map;
* selecting and lighting a cigarette/cigar/pipe;
* talking to and looking at a passenger;

At the end of the day though it is for individual juries to decide whether driving was simply below the normal standard or far below.

At present there is no offence of causing death by careless driving and as the maximum punishment for careless driving is £2500 and driving bad (i.e. can't go to jail for it) it does mean that people kill people whilst driving below the normal standard and will only get fined.

The government is planning on introducing this new offence but there is academic argument over whether it is really the death that is the worst thing and if sentence should not be based solely on how bad the driving was (i.e. should someone who drives extremely dangerously but hurts no-one get a higher sentence than someone who kills someone whilst driving carelessly).

Hope that answers you question.

Hi Dac,

Like you say not really firm ground to base your driving on.

However, it is certainly a relevant point that if you have fitted better brakes etc. that you would have a very weak argument in mitigation (i.e. it wasn't too careless or dangerous because you had the mechanical ability to stop more quickly).

You mention the case of being able to "perform any manoeuvre necessary to avoid any accidents". Well it is not always that easy to say things like that. But I know what you are getting at.

What I would question though is you saying "driving outside your known capabilities" that would arguably mean a newly qualified driver was being careless a lot of the time (not saying they aren't with the correct definition!)

The law uses (as in most other cases) an objective test (so in some cases it is the "reasonable man" and in this case the "careful and competent driver"). Now whilst the law says that it is up to juries to decide on the facts and most will use their own knowledge despite what a judge may say.

Put simply though careless and dangerous driving is BAD driving, and we all pretty much know bad driving when we see it (or have to swerve to avoid it!!)

define BAD driving?

Indeed and this is the problem where laws are concerned! It is very hard to define something in practical terms. What you can do is look at CPS Charging Advice, and more importantly look at case law and see what the courts have found to be Bad!!

But if you've not sat on a jury before you can see the difficulty there is in deciding upon facts on the basis of what is a hard concept to define. Similar issues exist in virtually all parts of the law.

its a bit like arrogance