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a levels:mickey mouse A grades vs proper subject B grades watch

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    (Original post by Llamas)
    The subjects may be considered easier, but there's no evidence to show that they are. If the less able still get poor grades in the so called 'micky mouse' subjects then the only conclusion you can justifiably push is that the subjects arn't easier or harder, just a lower caliber of student takes them. Stop skirting round the issue with your tunnel vision approach to debating.
    i offered my opinion. i offered a suggestion to illustrate what i believed. i clarified that this was my opinion based only on my experience and first hand knowledge. i offered a scenario with an estimation of the results. im sorry if you feel that is 'skirting the issue'. like everyone else i had my viewpoint and was willing to see if it held. likewise, if someone makes a claim i like to make sure we can all test that and benefit from it.

    If you conducted your test (which is unlikely to ever take place) then I see no reason for you to conclude that there would be a pattern of 'micky mouse' subjects.
    fair enough, thats a difference in opinion. the scenario was aimed to highlight the nature and precise meaning of mine and if possible for you to offer an alternative outcome.

    Your claim is pure conjecture and you've put yourself into a nice little hidey hole by refusing to draw conclusions from any available evidence.
    which evidence? because everytime i ask for where im meant to have been proven wrong theres an awful silence. if you mean the data you provided, it is clear from the next quote that it is inapplicable to what i had in mind.

    Let's not forget this quote:
    lets not. if you remember, i asserted the mistake here "a) my knowledge had nothing to do with the original suggestion b) you spent all afternoon digging out data that cannot be applied to that suggestion." you didnt really address these points then, and now you supply the quote to support them.

    You've yet to provide anything but you're own stale opinion.
    if i ever claimed to have offered anything but my opinion, and the logic to which i reached it, then my memory fails me.
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    (Original post by Llamas)
    You've yet to provide anything but you're own stale opinion
    (Original post by musicman)
    You've hit the nail on the head.
    i wouldnt disagree that its my opinion, i informed yourself of that about two pages ago. i am bemused as to why you would then precede to try and defeat it, to then return to the same point having been aware of it all along.

    how about some quotes?

    v - "i have already given my opinion for the comparison of both at A-level."

    mm - "Opinion - not fact. And I'm telling you that your opinion is misinformed and that you lack the basic facts."

    v - "that is your opinion. i respect that. i had hoped you would have afforded me the same courtesy void of any direct refutation."

    v - "your opinion of arts is no better than mine of physics of which you called "misinformed" and lacking in "the basic facts". the difference being, i was quite happy to accept your opinion"

    MM- "I think that it does boil down to one's own opinion "

    MM - "what do you have to support your opinion?"

    v - "as i said about two pages back, that which im aware of and my own knowledge. the basic and necessary principles of an opinion"
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    (Original post by musicman)
    This has been established but Vienna has to waffle on.

    Has anybody noticed the general trend of Vienna's arguments?

    -Somebody makes a point
    -Vienna HAS to disagree in her usual slapdash "I can't punctuate to save my life" manner
    -Other people put forward their opinions which she instantly claims are wrong.
    -Evidence is offered to support these opinions.
    -Vienna descends into pedantic waffle, still offering no evidence except offering hypothetical situations which merely suggest an idealised scenario rather than offer hard evidence to support her point.
    -The debate therefore loses its focus and becomes centered around Vienna's waffle.
    as i was saying "the problems start when one or two members start laying personal remarks and fabrication against another person for reasons other than beneficial to the discussion". there are some points to be addressed if youre still interested? otherwise youre welcome to take this off-topic sub-debate/rant to General Chat or MSN or onto a freewebs website.
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    You've not given us any reason to believe that you followed any kind of logic to reach your conclusion. If all you're going to do is offer your opinion on untestable hypothetical situations then don't bother. What I did was take the nearest approximate to your experiment (the actual data we have on people who've taken the subjects you classify as micky mouse) and show that there's no apparent reason to consider them easier. (Edit: Other than your own prejudices, perhaps?)

    Why not tell us why you consider these subjects to be easier?

    Why not tell us why you think that difficulty can be expressed as an absolute co-ordinate as opposed to a relative measure dependant entirely on the individual?

    You're skirting round the issue because you're unwilling to enter into any kind of debate where you can't fall back on the old "well it's just my opinion so it can't be right or wrong nyea nyea nyea."
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    (Original post by Llamas)
    You've not given us any reason to believe that you followed any kind of logic to reach your conclusion. If all you're going to do is offer your opinion on untestable hypothetical situations then don't bother.
    thus, the forum can now take your position to be: no opinions on the discussion forum.

    What I did was take the nearest approximate to your experiment (the actual data we have on people who've taken the subjects you classify as micky mouse) and show that there's no apparent reason to consider them easier. (Edit: Other than your own prejudices, perhaps?)
    so you do admit, after two assertions to the contrary, that this data was not evidence applicable to my suggestion or hypothetical situation. a situation used to articulate my opinion. it is not nearest approximate because it completely misses the entire point of the comparison in the first place, that being a to apply a balanced and broad scope of candidates with equal amount of talent in all areas. the data provided is derived from candidates who are talented in the precise field to which they subjected themself to examination. as pig points out, it doesnt really help us expand any of the proposals we've heard on this thread.

    Why not tell us why you consider these subjects to be easier?
    i never stated that i considered them easier.

    Why not tell us why you think that difficulty can be expressed as an absolute co-ordinate as opposed to a relative measure dependant entirely on the individual?
    i never suggested anything to the contrary. i only stated that we could work on reputation or the average demands of the course based on the average required input to acheive the same grade.

    You're skirting round the issue because you're unwilling to enter into any kind of debate where you can't fall back on the old "well it's just my opinion so it can't be right or wrong nyea nyea nyea."
    Llamas - "It's entirely subjective as to whether any given subject is either difficult or requires a lot of work. It is therefore impossible to make any absolute comparisons between them. An attempt to classify a subject as a micky mouse subject or otherwise is either subjective or false, since it depends in the individual"

    with this in mind, i believe ive taken my opinion as far as it can go, and tried to demonstrate it as much as possible within those boundaries. whatsmore, i stated from the outset and reiterated it as my opinion and on what basis it was constructed. you cant very well criticise me for something i admitted to over 24hrs ago. but please feel free to point my in the direction of further objective discussion.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    thus, the forum can now take your position to be: no opinions on the discussion forum.

    so you do admit, after two assertions to the contrary, that this data was not evidence applicable to my suggestion or hypothetical situation. a situation used to articulate my opinion. it is not nearest approximate because it completely misses the entire point of the comparison in the first place, that being a to apply a balanced and broad scope of candidates with equal amount of talent in all areas. the data provided is derived from candidates who are talented in the precise field to which they subjected themself to examination. as pig points out, it doesnt really help us expand any of the proposals we've heard on this thread.

    i never stated that i considered them easier.

    i never suggested anything to the contrary. i only stated that we could work on reputation or the average demands of the course based on the average required input to acheive the same grade.

    Llamas - "It's entirely subjective as to whether any given subject is either difficult or requires a lot of work. It is therefore impossible to make any absolute comparisons between them. An attempt to classify a subject as a micky mouse subject or otherwise is either subjective or false, since it depends in the individual"

    with this in mind, i believe ive taken my opinion as far as it can go, and tried to demonstrate it as much as possible within those boundaries. whatsmore, i stated from the outset and reiterated it as my opinion and on what basis it was constructed. you cant very well criticise me for something i admitted to over 24hrs ago. but please feel free to point my in the direction of further objective discussion.
    Opinions are welcome, provided there's actually something to debate about them.

    (Original post by vienna95)
    while those adept at Drama would naturally find an A-level easy, and those with a talent for physics would have no problems with the technicalities of the course, the workload for Physics A-level is far beyond that of Drama. In this example I would favour the Physics grades.
    Perhaps you should have said that you personally would have to work harder to get a Physics A-Level than a Drama one. You might favour the Physics grade, but I doubt an admissions tutor for a drama degree would. Niether would a physics candidate find having the drama grade all that useful.

    (Original post by vienna95)
    reputation and difficulty are indirectly correlated. based on an equivalent ability at either subject, from my knowledge and from what we can deduce from the associated reputation of said subject, I believe Physics merits a greater accomplishment.
    Given the human penchant for ignorance, I'm not sure why you would put so much stock in reputation. Equivilent ability is a tenuous concept to base your conclusion on, it would be very difficult to measure. As you quoted Huntroyde earlier:

    People who are less intellectually endowed might choose to do subjects which are considered "easier", such as Media, but still get lower grades.
    If people who are less able are taking subjects which are considered easier but are still getting poor grades (indeed, the subjects I quoted statistics for earlier had about half the average A grade rate and even a third of some of the more respected subjects) then perhaps the subject's reputation for being easier is undeserved.

    Rather than attempting to deduce how difficult a subject is from it's reputation, it would seem more sensible to look at the actual pass statistics. Reputations are often speculative and unfounded, why you would put so much faith in them in this matter is beyond me. Unless you're seriously suggesting the people who take these subjects are so incredibly dull witted that they can take a much easier subject and still perform incredibly poorly you have to admit that there's nothing to indicate these subjects are any easier on an absolute scale.
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    Vienna is probably entirely correct in saying that an average sixth form would perform more poorly in chemistry than in media studies. But that's because a lot of them would find chemistry more boring than media. So let's replace "Mickey Mouse" with "interesting". And you can't knock a subject just for being interesting, can you ?
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    (Original post by Dr. Blazed)
    let's replace "Mickey Mouse" with "interesting". And you can't knock a subject just for being interesting, can you ?
    Yes but many respectable A levels are interesting but nevertheless not Mickey Mouse.
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Yes but many respectable A levels are interesting but nevertheless not Mickey Mouse.
    That just makes no sense at all.
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    (Original post by Llamas)
    Opinions are welcome, provided there's actually something to debate about them.
    indeed. you've evidently found a great deal of value in mine.

    Perhaps you should have said that you personally would have to work harder to get a Physics A-Level than a Drama one. You might favour the Physics grade, but I doubt an admissions tutor for a drama degree would.
    then the admissions tutor for a drama degree would no doubt express that on this thread.

    Given the human penchant for ignorance, I'm not sure why you would put so much stock in reputation.
    there appears to be little left on which to base an assessment. i dont agree with it, but after everything else has been razed to 'subjectivity', there is little else to go on, as i stated.

    Equivilent ability is a tenuous concept to base your conclusion on, it would be very difficult to measure.
    which is why i suggested a hypothetical situation. it doesnt mean that one subject cannot be determined as being harder or more demanding than the other in an objective sense.

    If people who are less able are taking subjects which are considered easier but are still getting poor grades (indeed, the subjects I quoted statistics for earlier had about half the average A grade rate and even a third of some of the more respected subjects) then perhaps the subject's reputation for being easier is undeserved.
    that figure is determined by the ability level of the candidate applying to be assessed.

    Rather than attempting to deduce how difficult a subject is from it's reputation,
    we were attempting to deduce whether it could be labelled as 'mickey mouse' or not.

    it would seem more sensible to look at the actual pass statistics.
    again, i dont think that is any better an indicator.

    Reputations are often speculative and unfounded, why you would put so much faith in them in this matter is beyond me.
    i didnt, i pointed out the natural conclusion once everyone berated me for trying to determining the demand of each subject in a hypothetical, objective manner.

    Unless you're seriously suggesting the people who take these subjects are so incredibly dull witted that they can take a much easier subject and still perform incredibly poorly you have to admit that there's nothing to indicate these subjects are any easier on an absolute scale.
    not that i can produce for you now no. but then again, i never asserted one was 'easier'.
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    (Original post by Dr. Blazed)
    Vienna is probably entirely correct in saying that an average sixth form would perform more poorly in chemistry than in media studies. But that's because a lot of them would find chemistry more boring than media. So let's replace "Mickey Mouse" with "interesting". And you can't knock a subject just for being interesting, can you ?
    Is she really?

    Comparing AQA media studies and chemistry we can see that 30.2% (54.3% for B) attained A grades in chemistry compared with just 12.2% (36.5% for B) in media studies. The across the board average was 18.9% for A grades. (40.8% for B)

    Even if the people taking media studies are less intelligent, if media studies is supposed to be so easy then why does it have an A grade pass rate only two thirds of the average, and chemistry nearly double the average?

    No one has offered any reason why these subjects are considered to be easy, except for vague references to reputation.
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    (Original post by Dr. Blazed)
    That just makes no sense at all.
    History I don't consider as MM and can be interesting. Sorry I didn't word my previous post too well, I'm tired - must go to bed soon.
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    (Original post by vienna95)
    indeed. you've evidently found a great deal of value in mine.

    then the admissions tutor for a drama degree would no doubt express that on this thread.

    there appears to be little left on which to base an assessment. i dont agree with it, but after everything else has been razed to 'subjectivity', there is little else to go on, as i stated.

    which is why i suggested a hypothetical situation. it doesnt mean that one subject cannot be determined as being harder or more demanding than the other in an objective sense.

    that figure is determined by the ability level of the candidate applying to be assessed.

    we were attempting to deduce whether it could be labelled as 'mickey mouse' or not.

    again, i dont think that is any better an indicator.

    i didnt, i pointed out the natural conclusion once everyone berated me for trying to determining the demand of each subject in a hypothetical, objective manner.

    not that i can produce for you now no. but then again, i never asserted one was 'easier'.
    If you're not basing your classification on difficulty then what are you basing it on?

    Why don't you make this a lot easier for us all and actually define a micky mouse subject. (in your opinion, laffo)


    the number of students able to acheive the same pass mark in one subject being significantly higher than another.

    if you took an average 6th form and put them all through Chemistry and then IT or media studies or PhysEd, you could get a clear example of why one is considered to be 'mickey mouse' and the other not.
    That wasn't implying you considered one subject easier than others then? :confused:
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    (Original post by Llamas)
    Even if the people taking media studies are less intelligent, if media studies is supposed to be so easy then why does it have an A grade pass rate only two thirds of the average, and chemistry nearly double the average?
    if you look at the % of students that get A and B grades and add them together (for both media and maths for example) the percentage is very similar. a certain critic says that the higher proportion of top A grades for 'harder subjects' is due to the fact students doing the 'perceived difficult subjects' who *want* to do well are the ones doing chemistry etc.

    media etc. type subjects tend to be chosen by those killing time or who are unsure what to do, yet they still manage to do well, although have a lower overall % of top A-grades.

    lots of stereotypes, but not 100% untruthful.
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    (Original post by timeofyourlife)
    if you look at the % of students that get A and B grades and add them together (for both media and maths for example) the percentage is very similar. a certain critic says that the higher proportion of top A grades for 'harder subjects' is due to the fact students doing the 'perceived difficult subjects' who *want* to do well are the ones doing chemistry etc.

    media etc. type subjects tend to be chosen by those killing time or who are unsure what to do, yet they still manage to do well, although have a lower overall % of top A-grades.

    lots of stereotypes, but not 100% untruthful.
    Comparing AQA media studies and chemistry we can see that 30.2% (54.3% for B) attained A grades in chemistry compared with just 12.2% (36.5% for B) in media studies. The across the board average was 18.9% for A grades. (40.8% for B)
    Perhaps I wasn't clear, the highlighted figures were cumulative. There's still an 18 point gap between them when you take both A and B grades. That's media studies still 4 points below average, and chemistry 14 points above average.

    The gap has proportionally closed somewhat, but is still very definitely pronounced. Media studies only catches up once you hit D grades. It's the same with maths too.

    What we're seeing is dedicated chemists doing well, and unenthused media studies students performing well below average. At which point does this indicate media studies is easier?

    Edit:

    I've just noticed the ICT figures for AQA are even better!

    ICT [A - 6.8%] [A-B 23.3%] [A-C 48.9%] [A-D 75.7%]

    Indeed, a higher proportion of chemistry students achieve A or B than ICT students achieve A, B or C!
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    (Original post by Llamas)
    What we're seeing is dedicated chemists doing well, and unenthused media studies students performing well below average. At which point does this indicate media studies is easier?
    that depends on the quality of student 'on average' choosing to do the subject. if it was that difficult, i'd expect the 18 point gap to be larger.

    *note: this is purely an opinion reflected by the students who studied media at my former school*
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    (Original post by timeofyourlife)
    that depends on the quality of student 'on average' choosing to do the subject. if it was that difficult, i'd expect the 18 point gap to be larger.

    *note: this is purely an opinion reflected by the students who studied media at my former school*
    In a class of 20 we might expect something like the following:

    Grade - Chem. - Med. St.
    A - 6 - 2
    B - 5 - 5
    C - 3 - 7
    D - 3 - 4
    E - 2 - 2
    U - 1 - 0

    Media studies is full of C grade candidates, I doubt that's an inaccurate representation.
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    Can't be bother to read the rest of this debate but the low numbers of As in A Level IT are usually to do with weaknesses in written English.
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    (Original post by Tev)
    Art isn't mickey mouse, the people I know doing art have to work damn hard even to get C's!
    Having done a GCSE (grade B) and an A-level (grade C in one year, no, that's not an AS but a full A2 in a year), I can attest that it's not a mickey mouse subject at all.

    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    BBB, although personally I don't consider IT as mickey mouse.
    That's where I disagree. IT was the most piss-easy course I've ever taken. Bring back the old A-level Computing!

    That said, it's all down to the aptitude of the student for the course. If they have an aptitude for the course, they will achieve good grades.

    (Original post by musicman)
    It makes no sense whatsoever. Upload a load of waffle in an English Lit A2 exam and u'll score no higher than a D, if you're lucky. You have to know the texts inside out since one is not permitted to take texts into the exam and since the examiners could ask anything they like about the text.
    It depends on the text. Some of the modules you are allowed to bring in the text you have used, some you are given fresh texts, some you are given unseen texts and some you have no texts at all.
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    (Original post by tommorris)
    That's where I disagree. IT was the most piss-easy course I've ever taken. Bring back the old A-level Computing!
    Eh, they never got rid of computing. I found computing to be the most poorly designed A-Level I've come across. It's too broad a subject to be covered as they've done it. I think they should approach it more like they do maths, with a variety of modules for different areas that students can choose.
 
 
 
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