We Brexiteers have been way too blind to the Tories intentions and faults Watch

SaucissonSecCy
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In the clamour for independence, and the intense resentment for both the EU and the people on our own political class trying to sabotage it, I think us Brexit supporters have lost some objectivity in terms of the Tories and the general situation. For the record I would never vote Tory unless it was the only way to deliver political independence.(or maybe unless they came up with some radical progressive move on integration, unlikely in the extreme)

1)May does not seem remotely 'strong and stable' (the Tax heaven and Gibraltar sabre rattling just looked weak as hell, and Corbyn put up with much more pressure in the debate much more intelligently and calmly) or even like she has much sense or a clue. The usual media deference to the Tories allows her away with this.

2)Corbyn and the left of Labour, who have been fighting for power in the Labour party, have opposed the EU their whole lives. They paid lip service to remain(and only really believed in it temporarily while the EU is gradually dismantled in my view) for all the so-called 'centrist' brigade, NuLabourites etc. They care genuinely about domestic issues of real patriotism and social conscience(not the tabloidesque fervent rubbish about the royals, pretending Northern Ireland was a one sided issue, etc)

This in contrast to the majority of Tory establishment (and teenage Thatcherite Tim Farron) that has favoured being in, and now pays lip service to something else else, out of political opportunism. Ted Heath and Thatcher had us in, and many pro-Corporate Tories support much of the EU and it's sweeteners which facilitate corporate and bankster monopoly, and lack of empowerment for the rest.

Many Tories see the only good reasons for leaving involve such things as scrapping the human rights act and environmental regs, they are not remotely opposed to the neoliberalism and lack of democracy/empowerment of people that the EU was perpetuating. They also see it as an opportunity to hop into bed with the US in a subservient way, perpetuated by the same post-imperial deluded mentality.

They are showing they will be slavish to (foolish) US foreign policy and trade agreements with the US may end up being even every bit as regressive, and subservient, or even worse, than the TTIP deal that they so enthusiastically advocated. The post imperial style behaviour over Gibraltar was multiplied by a million when that imbecile Fallon started talking about how he could nuke North Korea, a conflict that we had nothing to do with- and these are the 'trustworthy, stable strong hands' Really? They are literally behaving with as little nuance and intelligence as the hordes of Murdoch press readers.

They show no sign of being progressive on civil liberties(only David Davis has ever cared about this)

The 'northern powerhouse' is a vapid gimmick. It has been revealed that people in London receives 24 times per head the infrastructure funding that people in the north east do. 24!

As for exciting trade arrangements, we have seemingly only gone to reinforce the Saudi relationship, with the worse regime on earth, and this will only enhance their pernicious hold over our foreign and domestic policy, and their influence in spreading pernicious ideology through British schools and mosques. This along with aforementioned US relationship(and of course the US Saudi ties are embedded)

Another deeply regressive move.

3)May is showing a complete intransigence and lack of flexibility ad intelligence in her approach to Brexit.

She seems to follow the sun readers, and doesn't understand that we can, for example, take Swiss or Norwegian approaches, like being in the EEA (European Economic Area), while we stablise, which will smooth over trade arrangements between us and them, which still gives us the ability to do whatever we want long term. Clearly we won't abolish all EU law right away and equally it isn't a problem to abide by whatever rules are needed here. Hell, even if it was free movement it is rubbish to say that outside the EEA they will get immigration down right away, and they certainly won't get it down from outside the EU, where, lets be honest, muslims who are future terrorists could be coming from with current policies- in the EEA you may be more likely be taking skilled Europeans. Also May never got in down as home secretary, Corbyn is more honest about this. The real problems are also not merely numbers, but:

1) Wage compression and squeezed living standards, which again Corbyn wants to tackle, certainly, not Tories.

2)Lack of English language in migrants, or migrants from totally different culture not intending to integrate, or worse migrants who want to kill and maim us in terror attacks. This will not be solved by Tory deflections or rhetoric on armed police, nonsense about Corbyn being an anti-patriot, or talking about New Labours past record. Many Tories are heavily in favour of the divided and impoverished populace that results from this, and the advantages to the corporates.


When we really look objectively at the fact-

The one nation Tory stuff is nonsense, it's merely mood music over the political realities like the power of profit, Saudi oil contracts, the lure of low wage labour, etc.

The Tories are appealing to the basest, least progressive aspects of Brexit, not the democratic ones. They are creating cynical, low diversions and fear tactics about republicans and people who try and present a more complex pitcure of situation like Northern Ireland. The tory media is calling people who don't want countless people living of food donation or a corporation tax of a mere few percent higher, 26%, ad being communists, or perpetuating the politics of envy.

I have loathed the illegitimately snobbish term 'populism' to describe the anti-establishment moves going on for self determination and liberty, but the kind of sentiments the Tories are appealing to and stirring up, the tactics they are using and the marginalizing of objective debate and nuanced thought on these issues and the future direction we choose is more worthy of it than anything.

They are behaving just like Cameron did in appealing to the genuine little Englanders raised on a political diet of Murdoch papers. Sadly the BBC is not much better.

I don't share remainers daft believe there is something unintelligent or parochial about Brexit , it's just that side of Britain that is like that and anti-progressive and succumbing to simplistic fallacious beliefs is being used and encouraged by the Tories, and in some cases they seem regressive enough to want that direction personally. That vision of Brexit is being used.

What matter most is long term independence and democracy in the real sense, and we will not be remaining with Labour. So Corbyn may not be 'presidential'.

It may not be a 'presidential' time. Labour would be genuinely economically and socially progressive, they would end our ties with the Saudis that have been so profoundly damaging, you will never ever get a consideration of such policies from the Tories because they are beholden to the same system.

What's the point of our great free trading outside the single market amounting to Saudi arms and oil contracts, and their vile influence on us, when even if we stayed in the single market for a few more years, we could get rid of this, make many genuine progressive moves and leave later down the line?

We have to ditch our paranoia that Labour would less have us leave. The Lib Dems and many Tories want to remain. May wanted to, Johnson until recently. New Labour did but people of McDonnell and Corbyn's ilk certainly don't. We are almost being told because they don't want Brexit in the ways the Tories do, they are for remain- this is laughable as so much of Tory establishment wants remain and they have opposed throughout their careers- don't confuse being against Tory Brexit, propelled by many remainers, as being anti-independence.

To come back to foreign and trade policy, and the Saudis, to have to listen to the propaganda about anti-patriotic Corbyn and his subversive Britain hating, while our establishment has been in bed with this country, and the Tories will crawl up their arse even further, is just nauseating. These are the people who back ISIS!! They funded Hillary, this is what establishment is like. They have backed sicko islamic extremism all over faith schools and and mosques in this country. And just because Corbyn acknowledges that maybe partition, repression, internment and torture, loyalist terror and bloody sunday happened as well as the actions of the IRA, he is smeared.

Come, on , Britain, you are better than this, I don't want to believe we are going to be so dumb and manipulated. Be objective, use your independent brains!


Yanis Varoufakis is sound on Brexit and his experience with dealing with the EU establishment) on this here-



https://www.theguardian.com/politics...at-theresa-may

So what can Theresa May do?

The only way May could secure a good deal for the UK would be by diffusing the EU’s spoiling tactics, while still respecting the Burkean Brexiteers’ strongest argument, the imperative of restoring sovereignty to the House of Commons. And the only way of doing this would be to avoid all negotiations by requesting from Brussels a Norway-style, off-the-shelf arrangement for a period of, say, seven years.

The benefits from such a request would be twofold: first, Eurocrats and Europhiles would have no basis for denying Britain such an arrangement. (Moreover, Schäuble, Merkel and sundry would be relieved that the ball is thrown into their successors’ court seven years down the track.) Second, it would make the House of Commons sovereign again by empowering it to debate and decide upon in the fullness of time, and without the stress of a ticking clock, Britain’s long-tem relationship with Europe.

The fact that May has opted for a Brexit negotiation that will immediately activate the EU’s worst instincts and tactics, for petty party-political reasons that ultimately have everything to do with her own power and nothing to do with Britain’s optimal agreement with the EU, means only one thing: she does not deserve the mandate that Brussels is keen to neutralise

https://www.yanisvaroufakis.eu/2017/...t-viewdigital/ -

A: Theresa May should file for an off the shelf agreement. You see, she is going to be bamboozled by what I call the EU runaround. She will talk to Juncker, Juncker will refer to Merkel. She will talk to Merkel, Merkel will refer her to Schauble. Schauble will refer her back so the only way of avoiding that is by avoiding having negotiations. The only way to avoid having negotiations is by taking an off the shelf agreement, a Norway style, EEA agreement, and saying I want that. They won’t be able to refuse her. And to do this using a good Brexit argument, the only strong, philosophically strong argument in favour of Brexit, is restoring national sovereignty to the House of Commons. Well, do it – restore national sovereignty to the House of Commons but which House of Commons should make the decision? Not this one. This one was not elected with a mandate to discuss Brexit because when they were elected they did not know Brexit was going ahead. The next one. To give the next parliament an opportunity to have this discussion. A minimalist Brexit now with an EEA agreement and then that is what will create the circumstances for Northern Ireland and Ireland to maintain the status quo for long enough to be able to create the process that would lead to a good solution for all the people in Ireland.

Look, Corbyn and Mcdonnell do not give a flying Toss about the EU, most Tories are ideologically way more in favour of being in overall on balance.

May's actions could even result in political pressure for a referendum on a **** deal, which would have us remain.

The idea we have to run off bowing and scraping to the US and the Saudis over trade and foreign policy right now, otherwise we remain, only requires cursory scrutiny- it's absurd and truly 'populist', in it's worst connotation. The idea we can't be in the EEA or single market temporarily, or even as long as we want, without being as self determining as we choose later, is also absurd.

It would be hysterical and we will look incredibly weak to think we must choose the former because of immigration and trade because it will deliver bad results on both now, get us further entangled in regressive predicaments, and it will not give us more power over them long term.

Clearly it's possible to do a Norway or Switzerland, or myriad other choices, and let all the hysteria and fighting die down, and get more and more autonomy over time, while the EU deals with the rest of their myriad of problems.

I myself have been vulnerable to the panic over Brexit, but we Brexiteers now need to be more objective, and thoughtful about this.
Under both major parties, we are leaving- The Tories are if anything actually more likely to push us, if it were to happen, into referendum mkII territory.

Even voting Labour to give the Tories a win but a smaller majority is wise as they will be able to push more sound and progressive Brexit ideas on the agenda.
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donkuu
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Tories always have good economics, I like economics, I will vote tory.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by donkuu)
Tories always have good economics, I like economics, I will vote tory.
Why is it middle England Tory voters rationales are always so glib and self-satisfied?

Not hard to answer that.
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ByEeek
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(Original post by donkuu)
Tories always have good economics, I like economics, I will vote tory.
Really? Last Tory goverment under Thatcher and Major saw massive boom and bust (twice?). Cameron in bringing the referendum has created one of our most uncertain futures in modern times including record falls on the stock market an our Weak and Wobbly leader hardly shows signs of strength.

I'm not saying the other lot are better but how anyone can say the tories can run a good economy based on their recent track record is beyond me.
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SaucissonSecCy
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(Original post by ByEeek)
Really? Last Tory goverment under Thatcher and Major saw massive boom and bust (twice?). Cameron in bringing the referendum has created one of our most uncertain futures in modern times including record falls on the stock market an our Weak and Wobbly leader hardly shows signs of strength.

I'm not saying the other lot are better but how anyone can say the tories can run a good economy based on their recent track record is beyond me.
The media coverage on the issue, as it is on many others, is just ludicrous. The amount of deference the Tories have often enjoyed facilitates the perceptions.

Perception is powerful, that's why Labour's manifesto proposing a corporation tax of 6% lower than Thatcher's lowest can have them portrayed as 'marxists'.
I am amazed that people are so easily manipulated by easy sloganeering and insults to their intelligence. Another example is the fantasy people have that the neoliberal Tories were ever hardline or socially conservative on immigration, and that the left of Labour are totally laissez faire about it. No, they are just being honest in saying they might not reduce it loads, besides the free movement that ends. May has a record of not curbing it. Labour propose realism that deals with wag undercutting, thus disincentivizing the corporates. The Tories don't care about this and pay lip service to wanting it lower when in reality it can't stop. Like with the extremism problem, most are usually home grown as well, so as with wage undercutting, there is a differing real source of many of the problems , which Labour will approach in a much more intelligent way beyond vapid, tough sounding non-solutions. The Torie could halt all immigration today and they'd still be in bed with the Saudis who have been so pernicious with their foothold in this country and their worldwide support for extremism. Labour would no doubt end this relationship.


Too many unreal perceptions and outmoded tribalism. Not to mention the regressive post-imperial delusion.
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