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Why I Reject Capitalism Watch

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    (Original post by Juan Perón)
    Not an argument. I mentioned nothing about communism.
    I never read your essay. Just read the title and made my point about how communism fails, ignores marketing as well as the entire design process and only leads to famine, starvation, authoritarian governments and stagnation.

    It also riles up middle class white kids who go around breaking people's windows and burning rubbish bins in the middle of the street. These damn kids have more to lose from communism than most.
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    (Original post by JoshDawg)
    I never read your essay. Just read the title and made my point about how communism fails, ignores marketing as well as the entire design process and only leads to famine, starvation, authoritarian governments and stagnation.

    It also riles up middle class white kids who go around breaking people's windows and burning rubbish bins in the middle of the street. These damn kids have more to lose from communism than most.
    Thanks for admitting that you didn't even read my argument before typing out all that nonsense.
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    (Original post by Juan Perón)
    Thanks for admitting that you didn't even read my argument before typing out all that nonsense.
    Except it's not nonsense though. Somehow capitalist societies are still surviving and thriving yet communist ones fall apart at the seams unless they adopt some forms of capitalism to keep some life in their corpses.
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    and for some reason TSR isn't notifying me that you're replying to my quotes
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    (Original post by Conceited)
    Well, a truly capitalist society - that is a society with no regulation or state to curb the excesses - has never been implemented. But, countries that are broadly capitalist and have decent aspects of the free market have thrived so much so that they've produced more for their citizens than any comparable socialist alternative.
    Thrived so much just look at the inequality in Africa and Latin America

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    I was thinking about buying a capitalist t shirt from valuetainment but I will hold off until I read what you have wrote OP
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    Cringe. It's not a perfect system but it doesn't take a genius to realise it's miles better than the alternatives.
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    "Capitalism" just means nothing tbh. It's even more diverse than "Socialism".

    But if we take capitalism to mean private ownership of the means of production + production carried out for profit (not use or any other goal), then I have no hesitation to say that capitalism is by far the best system we know for reducing poverty, increasing leisure time (yes, the richer you are, the more free time you can afford), boosting health, financing better education, etc.

    However, ultimately, all these debates are inconclusive. What is conclusive is that people from Maoist, socialist China migrate to bad capitalist Honk Kong to such a degree, that they had to ban migration altogether. What is conclusive is that people from the relatively well-off socialist East Germany wanted to migrate in droves to the rich, bad capitalist West Germany to the point that migration had to be banned altogether.

    As far as I am concerned, capitalism wins because only capitalist systems have managed to create widespread prosperity for everyone. Including the least well-off. Whatever arguments we might come up with, reality and experience is the best argument for most people around the world. India and China, 40% or so of the world, know and are beginning to know what we, thank the Gods, in the West have always known; private ownership + profit making businesses are the fundamental key to prosperity. QED.
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    We actually live in a capitalist meets welfarist society.

    Some people can live lives in the UK without working.

    Fortunately, socialism does still exist too, even in the simple pleasures of congregating with people without wanting to extract anything from them other than conversation.
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    (Original post by FakeNewsEditor)
    "Capitalism" just means nothing tbh. It's even more diverse than "Socialism".
    Not really. Socialism has loads of forms: social democracy, anarcho-socialism, democratic socialism, Marxism, mutualism, anarcho-communism, etc. There are relatively few variations of capitalism, so it's relatively easier to pin down.

    (Original post by FakeNewsEditor)
    But if we take capitalism to mean private ownership of the means of production + production carried out for profit (not use or any other goal), then I have no hesitation to say that capitalism is by far the best system we know
    Doesn't mean that there isn't a better system.

    (Original post by FakeNewsEditor)
    for reducing poverty, increasing leisure time (yes, the richer you are, the more free time you can afford), boosting health, financing better education, etc.
    Most of these standards according to which you judge the success of capitalism are simply materialistic and dubious in their accuracy. Even if capitalism does reduce poverty (and even then, it relies on a significant amount of people being poor in order to work), being less poor doesn't necessarily make life more meaningful.

    Capitalism, far from increasing leisure time, robs people of leisure time because they have to spend all their time working in order to have access to the most basic necessities. Even wealthy capitalists, who in theory can afford plenty of leisure time (like Donald Trump and Warren Buffet) continue to work well after they've earned more than enough money to life a comfortable existence for the rest of their lives. Why is this? Because without their business and without their lifestyle revolving around money and work, their lives are essentially meaningless. Money and work are their substitutes for a world in which God is dead.

    As for supposedly boosting health, you might want to tell that to the people working in Chinese factories in hazardous and inhumane working conditions what wonders capitalism does for the health of individuals both mentally and physically. Even in the industrialised West, capitalism causes catastrophic damage to the mental health of individuals, whose lives revolve around consuming and working and producing. That's how the system works.

    "Better education" is subjective. Since the modern education system revolves around making people study in order to get a job and continue the capitalist system, can you really say that capitalism allows for better education?

    (Original post by FakeNewsEditor)
    However, ultimately, all these debates are inconclusive. What is conclusive is that people from Maoist, socialist China migrate to bad capitalist Honk Kong to such a degree, that they had to ban migration altogether. What is conclusive is that people from the relatively well-off socialist East Germany wanted to migrate in droves to the rich, bad capitalist West Germany to the point that migration had to be banned altogether.
    Might want to have a read of this:

    http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secC12.html

    As for your point about East Germany and West Germany, the reason why so many people migrated from the East to the West is less because of capitalism and more for the non-materialistic reason that East Germany was a totalitarian hellhole. And most people would rather be poorer but free than richer and unfree. They went over to West Germany because it was politically free, not necessarily because they preferred its economic system. Neither capitalism nor state socialism provide individuals with freedom. West Germany was free in spite of, not because of, the fact that it was capitalist. Do you think all those people that fled from Cuba to the United States did so because they love capitalism? No, they fled because Castro was an oppressive tyrant. This is in spite of all of the (albeit dubious) material achievements of the Castro regime in terms of healthcare and education etc. When Cuba was capitalist under the dictatorship of Batista, the people may have been richer in material terms, but they were still unfree. The miners who Mrs. Thatcher set her police squadrons on most certainly didn't enjoy the "freedom" of capitalism. Instead they were treated as if they were dissidents in a totalitarian state. Turns out capitalists love the tyranny of the state when it's needed to protect private property. Look at Pinochet's Chile.

    (Original post by FakeNewsEditor)
    As far as I am concerned, capitalism wins because only capitalist systems have managed to create widespread prosperity for everyone. Including the least well-off. Whatever arguments we might come up with, reality and experience is the best argument for most people around the world. India and China, 40% or so of the world, know and are beginning to know what we, thank the Gods, in the West have always known; private ownership + profit making businesses are the fundamental key to prosperity. QED.
    Again, define "prosperity". Are you talking only in terms of material wealth, or in terms of spiritual well-being?

    And how do you know that capitalism's success isn't thanks to capitalists successfully co-opting the power of the state to crush anyone that tries to resist the system, feeding a few crumbs to the lower classes to keep them from revolting?
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    (Original post by Conceited)
    Well, a truly capitalist society - that is a society with no regulation or state to curb the excesses - has never been implemented. But, countries that are broadly capitalist and have decent aspects of the free market have thrived so much so that they've produced more for their citizens than any comparable socialist alternative.
    This is exactly what I was thinking, people are so quick to say capitalism doesn't work but when you tell them communism doesn't they want to claim it's never been properly implemented


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    China rejected capitalism 60 million dead later they embraced it again.
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    "Because I am an idiot"
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    No thanks. I'd rather go to Wendy's than line up for government turnips.

    Plus, on a moral level, I'm against the state having too much control over my assets and property.
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    Extreme capitalism is just as horrific as extreme socialism/communism.

    Extreme capitalism can cause extreme poverty and unfairness.
    But, extreme socialism/communism will keep people poor regardless.

    I believe in a mixed economy where some socialist and capitalist ideas can work together.
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    (Original post by Dandaman1)
    No thanks. I'd rather go to Wendy's than line up for government turnips.

    Plus, on a moral level, I'm against the state having too much control over my assets and property.
    It's infuriating that so many on the political right seem to think that the only alternative to neoliberalism is communist authoritarianism.

    There is a middle ground you know...
 
 
 
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