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Help! I've got to choose and I've got to choose soon!

tomcoolinguk

Universally very friendly. I felt that my background was irrelevant, but that my conservative political views were a real asset!

Magdalen's the most Tory of your three Oxford choices, though they're all still quite apathetic. Oriel however is nicknamed Toriel with conservative members in triple figures! I don't know about Cambridge.

tomcoolinguk

Well... I have formulated my shortlist. Magdalen is probably my favourite college, but I am reluctant to submit an application there for many reasons, not least that I have only spoken to two students, and both of them were involved in access; and access people are always brilliant. At Cambridge it is Downing or Clare.

I have two remaining open days. I have little time left to make my decision... aaargh!

Just wait for the open days to meet more people from your colleges of choice instead of further stressing over this. If charming architectural beauty is your thing then Magdalen perhaps wins hands down.

Reply 41

Acaila

17

Cambridge has oodles of charming architectural beauty.

Reply 42

Brown Patrick Bateman

10

Acaila

Cambridge has oodles of charming architectural beauty.

Yeah, I think Cambridge is a lot more 'consistent' for this; Oxford has some nice buildings and some "architectural monstrosities". For some this is really important, for others the novelty of being in a lovely building fades away quickly.

Reply 43

jcw

tomcoolinguk

In magic circle terms, Bristol is the top university... because hardly any of its students go on to the bar!

I'd be surprised about that, just because - in my experience - the numbers of people at interviews and vacation placements are always very Oxbridge biased, but I presume you've seen it somewhere so I defer to that!

Well... this is a biggy. Before my week in Oxford, Cambridge won hands down. It had the annual exams, with a good shot of getting a first (as you eloquently point out). However, the Oxford degree also offers a chance to consider each topic in a greater amount of detail.

Actually, my impression (and it has been informed by a number of academics and graduate recruitment-types) is that the Cambridge degree tends to give its students more detail (and expect a more rigorous understand of a subject) because they are only expected to deal with a few subjects at once. Also, because Cambridge students learn a subject over a year (rather than intensively over a term or term and a half), they have more opportunity to think about the subject and develop an understanding. Further, because the exam is taken at the apex of learning (rather than, possibly, six terms later) Cambridge's exams demand a better understanding, rather than a general understanding of a wide range of subjects at once.

I think, ultimately, having thought long and hard about this I may choose to apply to Cambridge. The reason; and this is quite a crap one is that I know I'd love to do a BCL at Oxford, but wouldn't really want to do a Cambridge LLM. So I could have both... hopefully!

There is some logic to this, especially since (i) the BCL has a great reputation and (ii) there are a lot of advantages to studying at both Oxford and Cambridge and being exposed to two different sets of academics. However, if you really want to study at Oxford, bargaining on doing the BCL there might not be a good idea. Firstly, it is very hard to get onto (I think the standard offer is a 1st in Part II). Secondly, you might find that the LLM better suits your needs/interests after studying at Cambridge (especially if you develop an interest in something international for which the LLM is much better). Finally, if you are really brilliant, you might find yourself in the position of being offered a Cambridge-Harvard Scholarship (I'm not sure if Oxford offers any of these; Cambridge offers two full-fees and maintenance scholarships to the two best performing Part 2 students who have applied to Harvard).

I am stilling waiting for full confirmation of what Oxford hopes to do with the LNAT results though, as I scored highly on the sample paper. If they are using it as a deselecting tool I may apply there. Sigh...

I really wouldn't let this influence you. The whole point of deselection (and I speak with knowledge) is to cut out those who have no chance of getting an offer and are therefore a waste of an interview. Deselection will not be of benefit to good candidates, merely give the University an objective test based on ability (rather than exam results, with consequent access problems) with which to justify not interviewing weak candidates. The interview and reference and still going to be the major tools wherever you apply.

Well... I have formulated my shortlist. Magdalen is probably my favourite college, but I am reluctant to submit an application there for many reasons, not least that I have only spoken to two students, and both of them were involved in access; and access people are always brilliant. At Cambridge it is Downing or Clare.

In terms of Cambridge, Downing and Clare are both amazing colleges which I would recommend without hesitation if you felt the people and place suited you.

Reply 44

tomcoolinguk

OP

13

jcw

I'd be surprised about that, just because - in my experience - the numbers of people at interviews and vacation placements are always very Oxbridge biased, but I presume you've seen it somewhere so I defer to that!

Well, as I explained it is purely because of the huge number of people going on to the bar from Oxbridge (which is obviously significantly higher than other law schools. For example, even Nottingham normally only gets about 5-10 going on to the BVC. I have heard, however, that Oxbridge candidates are segregated, as much as possible, on vac schemes to prevent candidates from other universities being put off applying. It is a dubious assetion for Chambers to have made, but they have...

jcw

Actually, my impression (and it has been informed by a number of academics and graduate recruitment-types) is that the Cambridge degree tends to give its students more detail (and expect a more rigorous understand of a subject) because they are only expected to deal with a few subjects at once. Also, because Cambridge students learn a subject over a year (rather than intensively over a term or term and a half), they have more opportunity to think about the subject and develop an understanding. Further, because the exam is taken at the apex of learning (rather than, possibly, six terms later) Cambridge's exams demand a better understanding, rather than a general understanding of a wide range of subjects at once.

Interesting. I think I have gained a bit more perspective, having returned from Oxford. Choosing between Clare and Downing though is very tough! Both have very strong reputations, and excellent facilities. Clare has a favourable admissions policy to people from state schools, but is so competitive that the benefits of this would probably be disappated.

Reply 45

Catt

Have you seen New yet? I would suggest giving it due consideration as well.

Reply 46

Toni Mag

Jools

Magdalen's the most Tory of your three Oxford choices, though they're all still quite apathetic. Oriel however is nicknamed Toriel with conservative members in triple figures! I don't know about Cambridge.

I'm in a similar (though slightly different) position. Could you tell me whether Christ Church is 'Tory'? It has a very wealthy reputation and I worry about a lack of 'community-ism' there.
Trinity at Cambridge: what's that like.
Any one???

Reply 47

priya

14

Toni Mag

I'm in a similar (though slightly different) position. Could you tell me whether Christ Church is 'Tory'? It has a very wealthy reputation and I worry about a lack of 'community-ism' there.
Trinity at Cambridge: what's that like.
Any one???

not sure about political stances of each college. trinity is big. and rich. thats all i know i'm afraid

Reply 48

Brown Patrick Bateman

10

Toni Mag

I'm in a similar (though slightly different) position. Could you tell me whether Christ Church is 'Tory'? It has a very wealthy reputation and I worry about a lack of 'community-ism' there.

ChCh has a fair few Tories but is not a 'powerhouse'. I don't know how its wealth relates to a lack of 'community-ism' though.

Reply 49

tomcoolinguk

OP

13

Jools

ChCh has a fair few Tories but is not a 'powerhouse'. I don't know how its wealth relates to a lack of 'community-ism' though.

Is it me or have the Conservatives became the new Communists? There's nothing wrong with being a tory!

Reply 50

JayJay

tomcoolinguk

Is it me or have the Conservatives became the new Communists? There's nothing wrong with being a tory!

Yes, but Conservatism isn't exactly renowned for engendering community spirit either.

Reply 51

Willa

11

but who really wants community spirit when you can be self sufficient

Reply 52

Acaila

17

tomcoolinguk

Is it me or have the Conservatives became the new Communists? There's nothing wrong with being a tory!

Nothing wrong with being a commie :tongue:

Reply 53

jcw

tomcoolinguk

Well, as I explained it is purely because of the huge number of people going on to the bar from Oxbridge (which is obviously significantly higher than other law schools. For example, even Nottingham normally only gets about 5-10 going on to the BVC. I have heard, however, that Oxbridge candidates are segregated, as much as possible, on vac schemes to prevent candidates from other universities being put off applying. It is a dubious assetion for Chambers to have made, but they have...

I would be exceptionally surprised if this was true, and it certainly isn't for most of the Magic Circle firms. I know this because I have very close friends who have done vacation placements. The reality is that, over the summer, the MC firms usually have a small number (three, for instance) of vacation placements at fixed dates. When you apply / are offered a vacation placement, YOU select which placement you attend (ie: which set of weeks) so they have no way of segregating Oxbridge candidates. And when you attend, you are given a list of all the vacation scheme students at the time, including their University, so it would be difficult to hide them!

I don't think any law firm would try to give a misleading impression of its make-up; it would soon come out that they were engineering vac schemes to hide the Oxbridge applicants and it wouldn't impress many students!

Reply 54

tomcoolinguk

OP

13

Acaila

Nothing wrong with being a commie :tongue:

Read 'Wild Swans'.

Reply 55

PDJM

4

I certainly agree with most if not all of what JCW says. At undergraduate level due to structural differences the Cambridge course could be considered better, ultimately you take a larger number of subjects and with fewer proscribed subjects (ie not Jurisprudence and Admin) as at Oxford it is possible to give yourself a broader legal education taking subjects which would only be available at Oxford at a postgraduate level. The fact that at Oxford that apart from Mods most subjects are examined entirely on Finals may be ideal for certain academic disciplines where knowledged/skills/subjects develop in a continuous manner; Law however is not such a subject, each paper being discrete, this combined with the fact that law is a quickly developing subject means that your knowledge can rapidly become outdated- so terminal assessment in the oxford manner is not ideal. That said at the postgraduate level the distinction is not so pronounced.

As for between Downing and Clare, I would choose Downing- traditionally it has what could be described as a "better" reputation for law, it also takes a larger number of lawyers than other colleges. The results for Downing also tend to be higher when compared to Clare. This combined with the fact that Mr Virgo and Mr Hopkins are excellent (I have been taught by both- although I am not a Downing man) would lead me to favour it to Clare- although Mr Hopkins is retiring he should still be supervising. Ultimately you should not choose a College on reputation but instead where you think you will fit in and do well, as the college itself will not really affect job opportunities or careers. A First from New Hall would make you far more attractive to employers than a 2.2 from Trinity. You may wish to consider the Colleges which traditionally take a higher proportion of lawyers than others, they are: Downing, Girton and Trinity Hall; each of which I would strongly recommend to someone considering Cambridge.

P

Reply 56

jcw

PDJM

I certainly agree with most if not all of what JCW says.

I take it you are *the* PDJM?

Reply 57

PDJM

4

If by "the" you mean the person who sits in front of you to the left in lectures yes; if you are the JCW I think you are. Sorry I'm being a bit oblique but you can never be too careful.

P

Reply 58

jcw

PDJM

If by "the" you mean the person who sits in front of you to the left in lectures yes; if you are the JCW I think you are. Sorry I'm being a bit oblique but you can never be too careful.

Ah, the very same! Welcome! I worked it out anyway from reading your posts re the BCL (especially the 'irrelevant' considerations!) and Girton College.

jcw

Reply 59

PDJM

4

Exactly, I suppose the pramatism on the BCL questions was partly it, i have always favoured substance over veneer hence my choice of College. Although I hope that's not a criticism! As for the BCL it appears that what I told you about SJC may be incorrect as two sets of figures for accomodation have been published- so I suppose it's a free choice- although I may stick with it.

P

Help! I've got to choose and I've got to choose soon!

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