Is taxation theft?

People like you are the worst leeches on society. Not benefit claimants.

You want to reap the benefits of living under a government every single day, but you aren't willing to contribute anything towards it.

You want the pleasure of living in a civilised society, for free.
You want to be able to walk down a surfaced and serviced road, and you moan if there are cracks in the pavement that trip you up.
You expect there to be specific measures to control the traffic around you, to stop cars coming onto your path. You have been provided with the right to walk down a pavement, in safety.
You expect there to be a safe way for you to cross a road, specific measures in place such as a pedestrian crossing.
You expect there to be laws preventing others from driving in a manner to endanger your safety. You expect there to be people on the street manning your safety, to respond promptly if another behaves against those laws. You expect there to be a justice system to deal with the law breaker who put you in danger.

And that is one small fraction of your day, where you reap the benefits of living in a civilised society, where a government has created and enforced regulations, and provided a physical and manned service.
That walk from point A to B is a tiny fraction of what you take from living a civilised country, where a government has ensured you've the right to all of the above.

But you want it for free. You people are takers, greedy and selfish. You make me sick.

This is a huge contributor to the government so they can pay health care and to help support those who can't afford to feed their children or live in their own home.

It does. You have the choice to be part of a group with the associated social benefits, and go along with the majority of the group, or you can go eat by yourself but lose said benefits.

I never chose the public services available to me. I never chose to be born and raised in my country. And I never chose where my tax dollars go to, nor did I even choose to give those tax dollars (or how much). It was merely dictated to me. I go along with it because I have to, and it's necessary. I would even pay some form of tax voluntarily, but it's not voluntary, and that's my point. I can't have private streets, lawmakers or police. As a single individual, it's out of my hands (not that I would necessarily want these things or believe that they would work).

But that doesn't mean a power taking from my earnings and exchanges without my saying so isn't theft. I understand that it needs to, and that it helps society, but it is what it is. A necessary evil, just as I've been saying this whole time.

You can choose to leave this country and go live a life free of tax. You however chose to remain part of a society that has decided it will collectively make choices, and one of the things said society has chosen is to pay tax. Q.E.D. You are choosing to pay tax.

I'm quite happy, I think I managed to use every variation on the word choice in that passage

You really don't seem to understand what I'm saying. It's almost like we're having two different arguments at the same time.

Okay, you're saying that because I choose not to row off into the ocean and die, I therefore choose to pay tax to the government under penalty of imprisonment. Gee, I guess it's not theft after all.

When I eventually rise to power as Emperor of Mankind (democratically), as I begin herding undesirables into the work camps/human recycling centres at gunpoint, I'll remind them that it's their choice, seeing as they could just leave (not my problem where), vote me out, or die by their own hands if they wanted to. And it's all hunky dory, as I am the physical embodiment of the state, after all.

There are plenty of places on the planet you could lead a perfectly happy life with little to no input from any government.

Taking something from someone by force or coercion is theft. That's just what it is, regardless of whether it's a group decision. Simply because a government has decided not to call it theft doesn't change anything.

The law and the state aren't God, otherwise no state could be guilty of wrongdoing. Again, you're seemingly trying to make the case that the state is the divine arbitrator of truth.

Such as?

Again, your whole argument just seems to be: "Well you don't have to stay here, so it's not theft."

The fact of the matter is, regardless of the benefits, regardless of my choice to stay here in my country of birth where my whole life is, a power that I personally did not choose is taking money I have earned in private dealings without me volunteering that money. Yes, I could potentially leave to stop that from happening, but how does that stop it from being theft in the first place? It doesn't.

The government could give me a permit to enter your house (where you were born and have lived all your life) and keep taking whatever I want. Should you call it stealing, I'd remind you that I'm not stealing anything, seeing as you are choosing this by choosing not to leave and live under a bridge.

Err, excuse me? When did I say I'm not willing to contribute anything? When did I say I just 'expect' all these things for free? I didn't, and I never even implied it.

I literally said taxation was necessary and that society needs it to function. But in my eyes, it's technically theft. Necessary and justified theft, but still theft. That's literally all I've been saying.

Screw off, you slanderous insect.

Such as?

Again, your whole argument just seems to be: "Well you don't have to stay here, so it's not theft."

The fact of the matter is, regardless of the benefits, regardless of my choice to stay here in my country of birth where my whole life is, a power that I personally did not choose is taking money I have earned in private dealings without me volunteering that money. Yes, I could potentially leave to stop that from happening, but how does that stop it from being theft in the first place? It doesn't.

The government could give me a permit to enter your house (where you were born and have lived all your life) and keep taking whatever I want. Should you call it stealing, I'd remind you that I'm not stealing anything, seeing as you are choosing this by choosing not to leave and live under a bridge.

But IT'S NOT THEFT BECAUSE YOU ARE USING ALL THOSE PUBLIC SERVICES I DESCRIBED. Most of the minutes of your waking hours, you benefit from the government.

You are paying for a right to those services. How the **** is that theft? Why do you expect it for free?

There are plenty of vast wildernesses where a person with basic survival skills could sustain themselves and lead a perfectly happy life. There are also countries where it really wouldn't be hard to avoid any government influence, and countries where if it's your main gripe have 0% tax.

My argument is you've chosen to be part of a society that has chosen to be taxed. Whether or not you personally put it there is irrelevant IMO.

And yes, you're example wouldn't be theft. I don't get what point you're trying to make but you failed.

How about if I change "take your stuff" to "kill a random family member"? Is that murder? I guess not, as the government said it was cool, right?

Therefore, what the Nazis did wasn't murder (yes, Godwin's Law, shut up) seeing as the government permitted it. By your logic, a government can never steal, never murder, and never commit acts of terror, provide its laws allow for it and its citizens either aren't willing or able to abandon their homes and live in the jungle (somehow).

As I've just said to Twinsh**s over there, I never asked for these public services, several of which I don't and won't use. I never volunteered my money. It's just taken from me under penalty of imprisonment. But because I don't (or can't) travel from my home to a remote, probably hostile land where there's no tax, it's still not theft in principle?

We are obviously at an impasse and there is no use in continuing this useless conversation.

Edit: But for the record, I am personally okay with paying taxes for certain services. I even called tax necessary, remember? You're all assuming that I don't want to pay for these things. But I never said that. I got called a bloody leech, for Christ's sake.

And did I ask for those public services? No. It was never a transaction I consented to. It was never optional. I never had any choice. And several of those public services I don't use and never will use (or can't).

And I do not expect services for free. Stop saying that. I'm actually fine with paying for many of these things through tax. But it's not voluntary and that's my whole bloody point.

So your house gets robbed but it's fine because you can move house.



So if someone who works hard gets more than half of their income taken by the government against their will, you don't find this unreasonable? Taxes are also not the only way to help people, private charity tends to be much more effective and if most people get a major bump in their income and living standards due to no longer having a big chunk of it forcibly taken from them, they're likely to donate more to charity. And in the case that someone doesn't want to, they should have the freedom to be able to choose.