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29 year old with a BA and a MSc who can't get a graduate job without GCSE maths!

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My school really drummed it into us that we needed a C in maths regardless of what we wanted to do for A Level/degree/future job.

I understand how annoying it must be though. I know people who couldn't get onto some graduate schemes without GCSE maths, but they did find alternatives and are doing very well now.

Other people have suggested just doing the GCSE - I know that's probably a pain, but if it opens more doors it's probably worth it. Do some more research and see how likely you are to get a job :smile:

Good luck!

Reply 81

Tootles

Original post by BillMurray

Even if my undergraduate and graduate degrees were in maths (they're not, but they're closely related).

If it's about reducing the number of applicants, I can understand that.

But surely it would be idiotic to refuse an application because they didn't have GCSE maths at grade C, yet they had a bachelor degree in mathematics for example? That would be utterly ludicrous, no?

Surely if it's that easy, just go to a local college or something, see if you can simply do the coursework and take the exams. I imagine the coursework would just take you a couple of hours - I did some GCSE English coursework as part of a NaNoWriMo project last year (flashing back to looking through old papers) and it took me like an hour to do a two month assignment.

Reply 82

ThePricklyOne

Original post by chickenshit127

How the FCK DID YOU GET TO DO A MASTERS IN THE FIRST PLACE?
How did they let you in, if you didn't have maths?

Question's already answered.

He did a foundation year where he didn't need the GCSE in maths. He's found he does need it because some employers won't consider him without it.

Reply 83

BillMurray

Original post by chickenshit127

How the FCK DID YOU GET TO DO A MASTERS IN THE FIRST PLACE?
How did they let you in, if you didn't have maths?

I got in by doing a foundation year first (a lot of institutions offer this route in to degrees these days for many subjects).

So I spent my first year getting caught up with the maths to the standard of A-level.

Then I got a first class in my bachelor's so it wasn't difficult to secure a place on a masters course.

Reply 84

chickenshit127

Original post by BillMurray

Then just put that in your job application or something. Say you have a gcse-maths equivalent. You should be fine if you got a masters, so i don't get it

Reply 85

BillMurray

Original post by chickenshit127

Then just put that in your job application or something. Say you have a gcse-maths equivalent. You should be fine if you got a masters, so i don't get it

Sure, I intend to but as others have stated, the problem I might have is that some jobs get such a high volume of applications that they use the GCSE minimum C grade automatically to cut down the number of candidates.

Not only that, but sometimes that process is automated.

Looks like I might have to just resit my GCSE's. Well, so long as I don't have to do an actual course in it.

Reply 86

Arran90

Here's an interesting scenario.

A person with a degree lies on their application form that they have a GCSE because the job spec requires it. They are offered the job and the employer does not check GCSE certificates, only degree certificates. After starting the job they take the GCSE as a private candidate. A year or so later the company requests that all employees bring in their GCSE certificates or else they will be suspended until they produce them. The person brings their GCSE certificate but the employer notes that it is dated after they started employment.

What happens next?

Reply 87

ThePricklyOne

Original post by Arran90

The dude gets the sack for lying. A retrospective qualification does not negate the lie told during the job application.

Your argument is like saying it's ok to lie about qualification as a doctor to get a job in a hospital as long as you get a qualification some time later. I don't think most patients (mis)treated by the fake-doc will be so tolerant of their botched operations, misdiagnoses, and wrongly given, potentially fatal prescriptions.

the issue here is not what you think you can get away with, but the damage a liar causes to the reputation of the company and its business.

Reply 88

Kre

Original post by Arran90

Wouldn't change a thing, it's still misleading and essentially lying to get a job.

Reply 89

Arran90

Original post by ThePricklyOne

Your argument is like saying it's ok to lie about qualification as a doctor to get a job in a hospital as long as you get a qualification some time later. I don't think most patients (mis)treated by the fake-doc will be so tolerant of their botched operations, misdiagnoses, and wrongly given, potentially fatal prescriptions.

This is a very poor argument because a medical doctor legally requires a medicine degree whereas there are no jobs that legally require a GCSE in anything. A lawyer told me that the legal requirement for a qualification is the main public interest criteria when it comes to prosecuting people for taking up employment with false credentials.

My scenario raises the question as to whether the employer is more interested in whether an employee has the qualifications and knowledge at the time when he is requested to produce the certificates or whether the employee was truthful or not on the application form.

Reply 90

ThePricklyOne

Original post by Arran90

As Kre already said:

Wouldn't change a thing, it's still misleading and essentially lying to get a job.

Reply 91

martin7

Original post by BillMurray

Looks like I might have to just resit my GCSE's. Well, so long as I don't have to do an actual course in it.

It's not difficult to find GCSE past papers online, together with the mark schemes. Work through the last few years' worth to make sure you do know what's needed -- you might find that they include content you've not done before, but that wasn't relevant to your degrees.

Reply 92

Arran90

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

If you were doing the job just fine but then your employer found out you didn't have GCSE maths they would be nuts to fire you. Although mindless bureaucracy can get in the way of common sense.

Very true. It costs the company money to fire an employee then find a replacement. There is also the possibility that the replacement is not as good as the person who was fired. Therefore it will generally not be in the corporate interest to fire an existing employee for lying about a GCSE.

The decision whether or not to fire the employee will depend on whether the employer places a greater value on common sense or an honest to God mentality.

Original post by ThePricklyOne

Wouldn't change a thing, it's still misleading and essentially lying to get a job.

Take into account that the employer still hasn't proven that the employee in question did not have the GCSE at the time he applied to the company. The employee could argue that he lost the certificate and struggled to obtain a replacement because he couldn't remember which exam board he took the GCSE with. Therefore the easiest and cheapest solution would be to sit the GCSE exam again.

If you read the scenario correctly then employees would be suspended until they produced the certificates. It puts the employer in a dilemma whether to believe the employees story which could be untrue or disbelieve the employees story which could be true.

Reply 93

ThePricklyOne

Original post by Arran90

The reputation and good name of the company is in the corporate interest. Retaining a liar is not.

Employers recruit all the time, so why would they keep a unqualified employee who lies over a one with qualifications and a clean record?

Original post by Arran90

The employer doesn't have to 'prove' anything. If you do not have the documents you claim to have, then you don't get the job. There are many applicants and few jobs. The employer will choose the best. And that's clearly not you.

Original post by Arran90

If you read the scenario correctly then employees would be suspended until they produced the certificates. It puts the employer in a dilemma whether to believe the employees story which could be untrue or disbelieve the employees story which could be true.

There's no dilemma. The employee is lying and will not be taken on.

Have you ever had a job?

(edited 6 years ago)

Reply 94

ChaoticButterfly

Original post by chickenshit127

How the FCK DID YOU GET TO DO A MASTERS IN THE FIRST PLACE?
How did they let you in, if you didn't have maths?

BECAUSE YOUR UNDERGRAD DEGREE IS MORE IMPORTANT AT THAT POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ffs. Why do you people find this so hard to understand?

Reply 95

Arran90

I understand the OP very well being actively involved in the home education community. It is commonplace for home educated children to take fewer than five GCSEs (or even none at all) then go directly into A Levels or even degrees. This has caused consternation if the individual has higher level qualifications but few or no GCSEs and the job spec states that GCSEs are required. In many cases such people (sadly) resort to lying simply in order to overcome what is essentially a bureaucratic hurdle or a tickbox exercise. This does carry the risk of dismissal but criminal prosecutions are deemed to be unlikely.

The situation also raises questions about foundation years at university. Foundation years enable students to access degree courses if they do not have traditional qualifications but are universities aware that a significant number of graduate jobs ask for GCSEs which puts many students who did a foundation year at a disadvantage? Are employers aware of foundation years and how a significant number of students who did them do not have five C grade GCSEs? Are employers deliberately discriminating against students who did foundation years by not accepting them as an equivalent to five C grade GCSEs?

If the job in question is applied to using a CV then it is not convention to state GCSEs on a CV so even if the job spec states that GCSEs are required in addition to a degree or higher level qualification and the applicant does not have them then it is probably worthwhile applying to the job anyway as the employer may not check the GCSEs. It's only lying if application forms are used where there are boxes for GCSEs and the applicant states that they have GCSEs when they don't.

Experience has revealed that many companies are unapproachable when it comes to asking questions about the job-spec. They are usually written by some blonde bimbo from HR who doesn't really understand the job well and just operates on a tickbox basis so they can't really answer when it comes to non-standard applicants.

Employers don't understand qualifications very well. It is not unknown for them to ask for obsolete qualifications or fail to recognise equivalent qualifications. In some cases they (or the blonde bimbos from HR) don't even realise that IGCSEs are equivalent to GCSEs so holders of IGCSEs commonly put on application forms that they are GCSEs which is technically lying.

Reply 96

Doones

Original post by Arran90

My scenario raises the question as to whether the employer is more interested in whether an employee has the qualifications and knowledge at the time when he is requested to produce the certificates or whether the employee was truthful or not on the application form.

And that's the key point - and the reason for my original reply to the OP: they should contact companies direct and explain their non-standard circumstances.

So, if the OP contacts a company and says they are interested in job xyz and have a BSc and MSc but not GCSE maths then it's up to the company. The company might say: no worries please apply (or not). But the company is in full knowledge of the circumstances and makes the business decision it deems necessary.

However if the OP, on your recommendation, instead goes through the standard process and lies about their qualifications. Let's say they then get the job. Whoop. However they will have to keep their fingers crossed for the rest of their career, constantly at risk of losing their job. The problem is not the lack of the qualification - it's the dishonesty. And the dishonesty could be uncovered for a multitude of reasons. One of which could be an accidental revelation down the pub when the OP mentions the lack of their GCSEs despite having a MSc and the manager overhears and thinks hold on...

This is why a cover-up is often a much bigger problem than the original issue.

Why is this hard for you to understand?

Reply 97

ThePricklyOne

Original post by ChaoticButterfly

BECAUSE YOUR UNDERGRAD DEGREE IS MORE IMPORTANT AT THAT POINT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ffs. Why do you people find this so hard to understand?

Why do you find it hard to understand that the employers want someone who's taken a conventional path to get to their degree - via STEM GCSEs, STEM A Levels then degree/ post grad degree? That they can't handle someone who's done it via a different way.

That a machine processing of the first stage of a job application, a perfectly decent applicant could be excluded if the machine expects GCSE Maths, and he doesn't have it?

Machines are going to decide your mortgage/loan/credit card application, your child's choice of school, the frequency of your rubbish collection, your taxi booking and whether you've be allowed to park your car near your home at peak time. There is a company currently writing an algorithm to apply surge pricing in car parks. So depending on when you park, the price can go up.

The smart human should realise that this is happening and find creative ways of circumventing it.

Man V Machine. Come on, you can do this.

Reply 98

ThePricklyOne

Original post by J-SP

And sometimes a lot of analysis goes into whether certain qualifications are predictors of success on the job. I've done really boring data analysis to see if an accountancy firm should scrap the GCSE requirements they had. Unfortunately all the evidence suggested they shouldn't, as it could lead to more staff failing their professional exams.

A mate's done analysis on the relationship between GCSEs grades and ability to complete a degree, and he found that good grades at GCSE is a predictor of successfully completing a degree. He was looking for the best way for a university to select students for various degree courses.