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Controversial debate on education watch

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    Before I go any further on this I would like to say that I was bought up in a lower middle class environment whith my own bedroom, peice and quite and support from my parents. I did however go to one of the worst schools in the country.

    Now for the debate what is education? When you do know if somebody is educated, as I have a good feeling education has nothing to do with how many degrees you have or A levels.

    My second point is do you think somebody from a poor background with lousy parents who gets CCD at A level has acheieved more than a private school person with 4 A's but who has been bought up in an envirionment with lots of books, well educated parents etc?

    My sister got 4 A's at A level, she went to a grammer school but had to work hard to pass her 11+ to get in, plus work hard for her A levels but she has well educated parents and supported parents. I didn't take such a traditional route but then special needs mean't I didn't have the confidence at the time but now I want to go onto a masters. However I feel I am at an advantage and it is unfair to look down on those with lesser qualifications because of this.

    Sorry for doing a Mark KK by the way
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    Sorry for doing a Mark KK by the way

    Thats alright
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)

    Now for the debate what is education? When you do know if somebody is educated, as I have a good feeling education has nothing to do with how many degrees you have or A levels.
    Education is just acquired knowledge (about anything), the more educated a person is the more knowledge they have acquired.
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    (Original post by Dajo123)
    Education is just acquired knowledge (about anything), the more educated a person is the more knowledge they have acquired.
    Yup. People too often get caught up in this craze over qualifications without bearing in mind what their purpose actually is - the school curriculum is too often focused simply on training you pass the History exam, rather than provide you with a genuine and detailed historical knowledge.
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    However I feel I am at an advantage and it is unfair to look down on those with lesser qualifications because of this.
    Lesser qualifications? Such as?
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    (Original post by an Siarach)
    Yup. People too often get caught up in this craze over qualifications without bearing in mind what their purpose actually is - the school curriculum is too often focused simply on training you pass the History exam, rather than provide you with a genuine and detailed historical knowledge.
    I think you summed it up perfectly there. Half the hard work of exams these days is understanding the exam rules and how to get good marks rather than purely subject knowledge. Pupils spend far too much time learning how to pass exams rather than learning the subject. Thankfully at university it is not really like this as the university set the exams.
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Lesser qualifications? Such as?
    People with no qualifications etc.
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    Before I go any further on this I would like to say that I was bought up in a lower middle class environment whith my own bedroom, peice and quite and support from my parents. I did however go to one of the worst schools in the country.

    Now for the debate what is education? When you do know if somebody is educated, as I have a good feeling education has nothing to do with how many degrees you have or A levels.

    My second point is do you think somebody from a poor background with lousy parents who gets CCD at A level has acheieved more than a private school person with 4 A's but who has been bought up in an envirionment with lots of books, well educated parents etc?

    My sister got 4 A's at A level, she went to a grammer school but had to work hard to pass her 11+ to get in, plus work hard for her A levels but she has well educated parents and supported parents. I didn't take such a traditional route but then special needs mean't I didn't have the confidence at the time but now I want to go onto a masters. However I feel I am at an advantage and it is unfair to look down on those with lesser qualifications because of this.

    Sorry for doing a Mark KK by the way
    Why is there any need to mention what class you belong to? If you're parents work then you are working class, simple. I feel by saying "I was bought up in a lower middle class environment", you are making yourself be more superior than the working class and surely if you went to such a bad school then you cannot be "lower middle class". I'm not being picky towards you in particular but I would've thought that seeing as you've battled to succeed in an environment were people are thought to not be able to, you would be proud of your roots and not try and feed the class system which has done you no good.

    You know if someone is educated because of their GCSE grades, their A2 grades and their degree. If they have an above average standard of these then by rights they should be reasonably articulate, good speller, have a good general knowledge and be numerate/ICT literate. Although all those qualifications are majorly flawed and always will be, because to learn you need teaching and if you've got good teaching, less work becomes your own.

    You've hit the nail on the head. Good parents, 15 years (!) of fabulous teaching, stable home life, happiness and attractiveness are all factors that will effect how we perform in exams. And yet, none of those are really things we can choose - they are things what we've got. It would be nice if that CCD person could get onto a BBC degree course but it is very difficult for people to decide whether they would've done better on different circumstances and also, whether a person with BBC would have got BBC under the same circumstances. So, exams are flawed but there appears no better way to judge a candidate on intelligence/motivation/how hard they work. None.

    As I always say "If you want to do well, you will". I'm sure you did one of the best in your school, that's an achievement. Had you have gone to somewhere different you may have achieved 10A*-C, but you didn't and although you may have not had the same opportunities as gaining 10A*-C, as you are prooving you can still do well and get on in life, it may be a bit harder but hard work goes a long way.

    The government honestly believes there is a small gap between good and bad schools - how wrong they are. Just having their little 5A*-C%, stops people from achieving more than that, or above C's because the teachers believe that is all they need to achieve. It's sad when people who have not worked hard and are short of getting C's get lots of extra help to get their 5C's and yet people who have 10C's are left, when they could achieve so much more. The government needs to have an A*/A % of grades to allow the best to achieve.

    I believe people should get special consideration when it comes to universities, whether they are put off because of applying as of their GCSEs/AS/A2 and have done not so well for good reason... motivation, hard-working and potential mean so much more than grades.
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    The main difference between the private and state sectors is that a private school gives an 'education' where as a state school merely equips its pupils with the knowledge to pass exams at a satisfactory level.

    Private schools actually attempt to make their pupils better people, give them social skills and other remarkably useful life skills; public speaking for example. State schools do their best, and do a great job but if you are after a well-rounded education rather than just exam certificates then the average school probably wont do it for you!
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    Before I go any further on this I would like to say that I was bought up in a lower middle class environment whith my own bedroom, peice and quite and support from my parents. I did however go to one of the worst schools in the country.
    Yes, big deal.

    Now for the debate what is education? When you do know if somebody is educated, as I have a good feeling education has nothing to do with how many degrees you have or A levels.
    Your level of education does in part depend upon how many qualifications you have, because that is the primary source of education for the majority of people. If by education you mean intelligence well that all depends, I think in part intelligence (as in the ablity to see things/problem solve etc etc.) does come with qualitifications but to put it soley down to that is in my view wrong.

    My second point is do you think somebody from a poor background with lousy parents who gets CCD at A level has acheieved more than a private school person with 4 A's but who has been bought up in an envirionment with lots of books, well educated parents etc?
    How the hell could you ever know??!

    [/QUOTE]
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    Before I go any further on this I would like to say that I was bought up in a lower middle class environment whith my own bedroom, peice and quite and support from my parents. I did however go to one of the worst schools in the country.
    I look down on people who can't spell peace and quiet!
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    (Original post by PeoplesPrincess)
    Private schools actually attempt to make their pupils better people, give them social skills and other remarkably useful life skills; public speaking for example. State schools do their best, and do a great job but if you are after a well-rounded education rather than just exam certificates then the average school probably wont do it for you!
    I partly agree; people who have been to private schools seem to have far more self confidence than people who were not.

    Public speaking is not a life skill. Nor is being able to arch, fench, fox hunt or whatever other ridiculous sports they are taught. Private schools teach people things that will make their life nicer and make them more successful.

    I never went to private school and I find it impossible for them to have the life education I had. It's been amazing what I've learned. OK, I learned self-confidence my own way, I have not had it drilled into me. I know how to respect people who may not have as much money as me, be a bit street wise and be grounded. Surely such privately educated people miss out on some lovely not so privelleged backgrounds - isn't that a vital?

    And of course, failure can be excepted by myself more easier and I do things for me, not because they are expected.

    See, private school really can't teach you everything.
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    (Original post by happysunshine)
    I never went to private school and I find it impossible for them to have the life education I had. .
    some of us who went to private schools did do other things outside of shool you know

    I am not going to try and justify this sentance with loads of rubbish about how i mixed with different groups as i dont feel i should have too. I personally feel i have meet many vaired people and yet had a private school education. Whether what you say is true as a generalistion is a better question, however it certainly isnt the rule.
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    (Original post by Incomplete)
    some of us who went to private schools did do other things outside of shool you know

    I am not going to try and justify this sentance with loads of rubbish about how i mixed with different groups as i dont feel i should have too. I personally feel i have meet many vaired people and yet had a private school education. Whether what you say is true as a generalistion is a better question, however it certainly isnt the rule.
    It was wrong for me to generalise.

    I just don't feel that you could've ever spent maybe 1000's of classes with people who are really not privelledged, and if you have come into contact with varied people - I imagine they are the best of the bunch, seeing as you're hardly going to hang out/go near/come into contact "smack-heads", "piss-heads", "slappers", 15 year old pregnant girl etc. Although that is at the very bottom end of the scale...
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    (Original post by happysunshine)
    It was wrong for me to generalise.

    I just don't feel that you could've ever spent maybe 1000's of classes with people who are really not privelledged, and if you have come into contact with varied people - I imagine they are the best of the bunch, seeing as you're hardly going to hang out/go near/come into contact "smack-heads", "piss-heads", "slappers", 15 year old pregnant girl etc. Although that is at the very bottom end of the scale...
    I think you would be suprised, the one example i would give you from our school is a thing called the soup run which was an activity run where 6th formers went into our city and ran food food and bread for the homeless in the winter. I appricate the fact that isnt quite the same as smack heads and not everyone in my school participated in such activites, but their are people at private schools believe it or not who are as expereniced as you.
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    (Original post by Incomplete)
    I think you would be suprised, the one example i would give you from our school is a thing called the soup run which was an activity run where 6th formers went into our city and ran food food and bread for the homeless in the winter. I appricate the fact that isnt quite the same as smack heads and not everyone in my school participated in such activites, but their are people at private schools believe it or not who are as expereniced as you.
    That's fabulous then. I don't think a lot of people from state schools would do that!

    I still stick to what I am saying to an extent, although I excpet their are exceptions and I imagine most feel very lucky to be in the position they are in.
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    (Original post by happysunshine)
    That's fabulous then. I don't think a lot of people from state schools would do that!

    I still stick to what I am saying to an extent, although I excpet their are exceptions and I imagine most feel very lucky to be in the position they are in.
    most are very lucky and i think most people in general are very ignorant of how other people live, it is only when another life style is thrust in our faces do we notice it
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    The main difference between the private and state sectors is that a private school gives an 'education' where as a state school merely equips its pupils with the knowledge to pass exams at a satisfactory level.
    No offence meant, but f*** off.

    You can't generalise about state schools like that, any more than I could say 'all people who go to public (that's private) schools are big headed.' It's not fair to generalise like that. Personally I would never send my (hyperthetical) children to a private school and I will explin why in a minute, but here's some other points first.

    1) Class DOES make a difference and is an important measure of a social structure. it is NOT true to say my parents work therefore I am working class, life isn't that simple. I would also class myself as lower middle class as this denotes a certain level of education and wealth. I sometimes think people get confused between class and caste, we have the first system in the UK which means it is relitivly easy to move between groups and describes groups, whereas caste defines groups so people can't move around. I also accept that there are things which have a much larger influence on us than class, such as the actural parenting skills.

    2) Education means to draw out. Thus the aim of education should be to draw out a pupils ability. This is made harder by the constraints of state schools, particuly in comprehensive schools, but storng parenting and strong state schools will be able to over come this.

    3) Private schools often have their results inflated by 1) the fact that they can select a number of their pupils, which can also serve to diminish the results of other local schools (by taking people with more potential) and 2) people who can afford private schooling often also go for private tutorship (there was an article in the national Guardian the other week), so bad public schools can get good grades.

    4) Education is about so much more than grades. It is there to train us to socially fit in. Not straight through lessons, but by interacting with other people. This is why the comprehensive system is so imporant: it means that people can communicate with others from all levels of society, helping make sure that class does not turn in to the casam of caste. It is also why it is essentail that disabled children and younf g people should be taught in the same schools as everyone else as much as possible.

    5) there are however problems with the coprehensive system. For one thing, it is not yet comprehensive, there are too many people who do not use it so it looks poorer than it actrually is. Also there are often problems where bullying occurs because a good school ethos relies so much on good teachers, and there are not enough of these either on ground level or in mangagemnet. Please note though that this is a problem in all school systems, it just gets accentuated with the comprehensive system.

    6) Private schools are almost all businesses, run for profit. In order to succeed they must therefore sell their products, their pupils. As with any kind of selling tactic they must try and present their products, their pupils, as better than anyone else's. This can get ingrained in people's heads, as I think it has in PeoplesPrincess' case, and it actrually takes a very high level of intelligence to overcome this marketing.

    7) did sarah101 consider that maybe one of amazingtrade's learning difficulties might have been dyslexia? (I on the other hand have absolutly no excuse for not being able to either spell or type).#

    Right...GO! Rip my arguments to shreads (and then I'll try an do the same to you!)
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    OUt of 14 years of education i spent 6 is Private schools and the other 7 in the state sector. I wouldn't send my children to a state school if i could help it. I know that sounds terrible but honestly, my experience of private school has been wholly better of that of the state system.
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    (Original post by PeoplesPrincess)
    OUt of 14 years of education i spent 6 is Private schools and the other 7 in the state sector. I wouldn't send my children to a state school if i could help it. I know that sounds terrible but honestly, my experience of private school has been wholly better of that of the state system.
    I have had a similar experience and I would ensure my children definately went to state primmary school so they did not turn out to be posh *****
 
 
 
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