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Controversial debate on education watch

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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    I do I never said I didn't.
    Ok.... I misread your original post.
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    (Original post by Bigcnee)
    Ok.... I misread your original post.
    The reason I mentioned my class was because it is border lining on both cases so I am kind of in the middle. People seem to have taken it as I was moaning when I wasn't. I was just simply stating I went to a crappy school with low achievement but I have well formaly educated parents so I have kind of seen both sides if that makes sence.
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    What do people think of the german education system? Okay so it's quite diverse like ours, but there's also a strong comprehensive system which works differently from ours. I believe that it goes something like this:

    There are effectivly three schools: one for the most demanding pupils, one for the intermediate and one for the high flyers. The pupils better at acadmeia then can have concentrated and high level teaching, aimed at streching them further. Like wise the intermediate and demanding pupils get streteched, but in gradualy more and more practical ways as according to their ability. Where this differs from the grammer and secondary modern system is that all three schools are on the same site, using similar resources and, I assume, giving greater flexability so if a pupil is achieving more than anticipated, or indeed lower than thought, they can be moved accordingly.

    I believe this is how the system works, if anyone knows otherwise I would be happily corrected
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    I went to a state school and a pretty crappy one at that. I got good grades (enough to get into Oxbridge) and I think the fact that I went to a state school makes me appreciate my achievements more. I had zero encouragement and not great resources. I know that I got my grades through my own hard work. That's more reflective of life if you ask me, you don't get everything handed to you on a plate like at private schools. Those pupils are taught how to complete the exam paper by answering in a way the examiners want to hear. State school pupils have to learn the material.

    I also think that private public school pupils are encouraged to be more competitive than is healthy. That'll lead to you alsways feeling inadequate unless you're second to none. I don't think that's a very nice way to live.....
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    I don't think it's quite fair to say that all public School students get their grades handed to them (let's all remember there are some seriously bad private schools, like my local one for instance), but other than that I totally agree with you LittleMinx.
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    Right, hello again.

    I think i caused a row my being pro-private school after having equal experience of both systems.

    My main reason for being pro-private school is that they take a wholistic approach to education, indeed they actually attempt to 'educate' their students not just teach them to pass exams.

    Second, while bullying takes place in Private schools (it did in mine) it is generally, genuinely frowned upon. Classes are small enough that teachers have the time and energy to take notice. ANYONE who has experienced bullying will understand that intervention makes all the difference. If you havent, then congrats.
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    But doesn't the fact that you claim private education is so much better proove that it's wrong? Because only a select few can go, including those clever enough to obtain a scholarship, it means that what you claim are all these golden oppotunities are not available to other people causing a greater schism in society? That is to say the argument for private schools could be drawn like this:

    more money = better school = better education = better pay = more money

    (By the way, I don't accept that the above model is true, but I'm trying to pick what seems an obvious hole in the public school argument). Surely a better system would be to give this full rounded education to the masses (and please note there is always a large amount of extra curricula activities available, just not as much as public school). Sadly, the only way this is going to happen is with more money invested in education in general (as well as in schools) which means more taxes (or a great boom in economic activity of course).

    By the way, my personal feeling is that schools should adopt a contenental day (8am to 1pm with virtually the same amount of contact time between teacher and pupils) and the rest of the day should be devoted to government funded extra curricual activities including more sport, more arts, further RE (so we can get rid of religious schools - another bar to a true comprehensive system) and practicle skills (including work related and home maintainance skills) that will enfuse young people and give us all more skills to take into adulthood.

    (NB I don't deny that I had oppotunities my co-pupils didn't, but that was largely up to my own motivation, rather than the fact that my parents earned more)
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    Of course, i agree with you. It would be fantastic if we could provide that level of education for all. Money...Taxes....pissed of British people.
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    Most education sucks in England (or so I read).
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    The education system is certainly not ideal in this country; hopefully i'll be education secretary one day to sort it all out.

    We place a far too great emphasis on summative assesment in this country, in other parts of the world university entrance isn't based soley on academic attainment in year 13 but on other acheivement, sporting or otheriwise. A much fairer system?

    Moreover we still have a terrible grammar school system in place. The idea that we can divide children into academic high-flyers and not at the age of 11 is based on Piaget's notion of child development. Its absurd really, i know plenty of people who didn't get into grammar schools who attain more highly than their grammar school colleagues.
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    (Original post by amazingtrade)
    oK for the person who made the comment I might have learning difficults hence my poor spelling I kind of do?
    If you are talking about me AT, the comment was aimed at Incomplete, I found it amusing that he/she was talking about how fantistic and broad his/her education was at a private school. Don't worry I've been neg repped and called an ******* for it (anonymously of course) LOL

    I know you have some learning difficulties, and it's clear from your posts what you are actually saying which is the most important thing.
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    Back to the debate.

    You cannot underestimate the part parents play in their child's education.

    My neighbour's daughter is in the process of moving north ostensibly to give her children a better education than they would get in London. She's been staying with her mother and eventually got her oldest 5 children into a local primary school. Now the oldest one is due to start secondary school tomorrow. He hasn't got a place because his parents haven't applied for him a place. I don't mean he hasn't got a place at a decent school, I mean at any school.

    So what's happening tomorrow? Well the family have gone away for 2 weeks.
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    (Original post by PeoplesPrincess)
    Right, hello again.

    I think i caused a row my being pro-private school after having equal experience of both systems.

    My main reason for being pro-private school is that they take a wholistic approach to education, indeed they actually attempt to 'educate' their students not just teach them to pass exams.

    Second, while bullying takes place in Private schools (it did in mine) it is generally, genuinely frowned upon. Classes are small enough that teachers have the time and energy to take notice. ANYONE who has experienced bullying will understand that intervention makes all the difference. If you havent, then congrats.
    All private schools are not clones of one another. And neither are all state schools. As for bullying, I know people who attended public schools who were horribly bullied. (One on the grounds of his race). Have you read the history of major public schools such as Eton or Harrow? You are generalising from your own experience. Just because yours was positive, it doesn't mean everyone else's was.
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    (Original post by bratcat)
    All private schools are not clones of one another. And neither are all state schools. As for bullying, I know people who attended public schools who were horribly bullied. (One on the grounds of his race). Have you read the history of major public schools such as Eton or Harrow? You are generalising from your own experience. Just because yours was positive, it doesn't mean everyone else's was.
    I know people from State school who were horribly bullied
    its not exactly a preserve of the upper classes then :mad:

    I think public schools are great but they're unattainable for the greater part of the population so the tragic thing is that if you fork out enough $$$ you can 'buy' your way into a better uni and, as a consequence 'buy' your way in2 better jobs and social positions, earning enough to prolong your traditional position by being able to send all of your children to a public school
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    (Original post by bratcat)
    All private schools are not clones of one another. And neither are all state schools. As for bullying, I know people who attended public schools who were horribly bullied. (One on the grounds of his race). Have you read the history of major public schools such as Eton or Harrow? You are generalising from your own experience. Just because yours was positive, it doesn't mean everyone else's was.

    Yes of course sweetie, i wasn't suggesting that ALL public/private schools are clones of one another. Eton and Harrow are in a completely different league to Wentworth College (formely Milton Mount).

    I know plenty, indeed most people go to and enjoy their experience of the state system but we cannot deny that people from private schools IN GENERAL to better academically than their peers in state schools. There's no point pretending otherwise.

    I also understand very well the role of the parent in educating their child. My parents are both teachers, i am the eldest of four, i have experienced this going on for 18 years. The fact that parents have to teach their children to read, to count, their tables is testament to the failure of state schools to educate their pupils. I'm not slandering the teachers or the pupils of state schools, i only wish that everyone could enjoy the facilities and the experiences that only a few can buy.

    Finally, on a slightly different note, i have a problem with this national disease - 'its satisfactory,' great but satisfactory isn't good enough.
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    (Original post by sashh)
    Back to the debate.

    You cannot underestimate the part parents play in their child's education.

    My neighbour's daughter is in the process of moving north ostensibly to give her children a better education than they would get in London. She's been staying with her mother and eventually got her oldest 5 children into a local primary school. Now the oldest one is due to start secondary school tomorrow. He hasn't got a place because his parents haven't applied for him a place. I don't mean he hasn't got a place at a decent school, I mean at any school.

    So what's happening tomorrow? Well the family have gone away for 2 weeks.

    What chance as that poor kid got then? That is why oppurtunity affects peoples education and you cannot simply get A straight A's no matter what. I guess this why people living in middle class suburbs are much more likely to get higher grades than those living in the inner cities. Also quite often in the poor areas the child has to work to bring money in, so they don't have time to revise and concentrate on exams.
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    I thought all parents were supposed to help teach their kids to read? That's what bedtime stories are partly for isn't it?

    Everyone keeps generalising (including me) and deciding one system gives a better 'education' (and here I'm taking this to mean learning of methods and facts to do with academia). Surely we can say then that both systems are imperfect, and that the level of education someone recieves has much more to do with the ability of teachers and parents in their life, and their grasp of oppotunities which they have available to them.

    What I really want to discuss is what the effects of people going to private schools, and indeed some of the very posh comprehensive schools, making many of their pupils feel they are better than everyone else. Should we not all be dedicated to a fully comprehensive system, so all the resources get pooled and a mcuh larger number of people from all levels of society get an improved level of education.
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    (Original post by Minor_Deity)
    I thought all parents were supposed to help teach their kids to read? That's what bedtime stories are partly for isn't it?
    Not all parents CAN read.

    Many of those who can don't, or can't be bothered.

    As I said, do not underestimate parents' roles in their children's education. Something as simple as letting a child do their home work in peace can make a huge difference.

    It's sad but true, that parents who pay for their children's education are likely to give them time and space to study, to have books around and to attend parents' evenings.
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    (Original post by Minor_Deity)
    I thought all parents were supposed to help teach their kids to read? That's what bedtime stories are partly for isn't it?

    Everyone keeps generalising (including me) and deciding one system gives a better 'education' (and here I'm taking this to mean learning of methods and facts to do with academia). Surely we can say then that both systems are imperfect, and that the level of education someone recieves has much more to do with the ability of teachers and parents in their life, and their grasp of oppotunities which they have available to them.

    What I really want to discuss is what the effects of people going to private schools, and indeed some of the very posh comprehensive schools, making many of their pupils feel they are better than everyone else. Should we not all be dedicated to a fully comprehensive system, so all the resources get pooled and a mcuh larger number of people from all levels of society get an improved level of education.
    The problem I am not totally against private schools (I would never send my kids to one) but at least you probably don't have to mix with low life scum who will probably live on the streets doing drugs all their life. I think they should bring back all grammer schools but get rid of mandatory 11+ (which the councils who still have grammer schools still have) as this would make people feel like failures if they fail. My sister lives within Manchester city council so she never had to take the 11+ for her it was an option like it was for me. I choose not to take the 11+. If I lived 1 mile away in Trafford I would have had to take the 11+ and probably would have felt like a failure for failing it.
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    (Original post by sashh)
    Not all parents CAN read.

    Many of those who can don't, or can't be bothered.

    As I said, do not underestimate parents' roles in their children's education. Something as simple as letting a child do their home work in peace can make a huge difference.

    It's sad but true, that parents who pay for their children's education are likely to give them time and space to study, to have books around and to attend parents' evenings.
    Yep I didn't go to private school but having well educated parents helped as there were always books availible and my parents would always help me if I got stuck with my homework. I remember my mum going mad when my dad went to parents evening complaining I never got any maths course work. That was a lie, I just never bothered doing it because the teachers didn't give a toss and would not have collected it anyway. The maths teacher wasn't too happy with me the next day though.

    I think things like having books, parents that go to parents evenings and are supported and make as big a difference as the school you go to.
 
 
 
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