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Births to foreign born mothers approaching one in every three watch

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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    I don't think Ivanhoe does glorify the Crusades. That the Third Crusade was a failure is frankly admitted, and many of the worst villains of the book are Crusaders apart from Richard and the eponymous hero.

    The description of the Knight's Templars couldn't be worse. They are represented as brutal, hypocritical, murderous sexual predators, looters and crazed religious bigots. Burning Muslims at the stake and trying beautiful Jewesses for witchcraft for the crime of having bewitched one of their number who had whisked her away on horseback with a plan of debauching her in a Templar monastery.

    Brian de Bois Gilbert is treated as having lapsed from his religious obligation for trying to ravish her, he gets a slap on the wrist because having slain three hundred Saracens with his own hands he is useful. She is the one who gets to burn for sorcery. (Except I have a hunch Ivanhoe is about to rescue her, haven't got to that part yet).
    Well, I haven't read the book, but your complaint seems to be that there's a lack of crusader heroes in modern popular culture. Am I misreading you? I just don't see how encouraging historical myth-making can be compatible with a desire to encourage good history. Just read up on Margaret Murray to see the sort of nonsense that leads to.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Well, I haven't read the book, but your complaint seems to be that there's a lack of crusader heroes in modern popular culture. Am I misreading you? I just don't see how encouraging historical myth-making can be compatible with a desire to encourage good history. Just read up on Margaret Murray to see the sort of nonsense that leads to.
    Yes you are misreading me.

    Ivanhoe is a wonderful story, wriien by a novelist of true greatness, and played a significant part in creating a national myth of Englishness, back in the day. Who doesn't know of Robin Hood? Of wicked Normans, and plucky Anglo Saxons fighting back rather than succumbing to a Conqueror's yoke?

    But you can't read it seriously now. It won't do as national myth, I was jesting there. I am sure in the nineteenth century a Norman baron turning a Jewish moneylender over burning coals, and basting him with oil in the dungeon of his castle, to extort his ill gotten gains of usury caused outrage and horror. I almost laughed, I mean it is so over the top!

    So whilst I do rather regret that he is such a forgotten author nowadays, I also kinda understand why. Plus he has such huge narrative sweep it is very time consuming. The nineteenth century was a more leisured age. What else was there to do in your free time but read? We have other distractions.

    I understand his power, I get him, but think I am part of a very small band who read him with pleasure in 2017.

    And I do think that is a shame, I guess.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    Robin Hood didn't participate in the Third Crusade in Ivanhoe.
    My mistaken assumption if not, though he is portrayed as a returning crusader in both the previously mentioned media.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    Ivanhoe isn't in the least historically accurate, in fact it is laughably not so. So what? Neither is Richard III. Its history is ridiculous too. Does that prevent the play being one of the greatest ever penned by any playright, anywhere, at any time?

    As for Scott's lack of Englishness I would say only this. Having single handedly created the myth of Scotland, kilts, tartan, Bonny Prince Charlie on every shortbread tin ya de ya, he asked himself where do most of my readers live?

    So he created a national myth for England too. That is what geniuses do.
    OK, but in this case I'm not really seeing how this relates to the thread topic in general. If you want to bemoan the decline in attention given to older literary classics, fair enough, but if you're not giving it as an example as some sort of lost English/British essence, then it seems to be a very tenuous jump in the thread.
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    My mother is foreign born but my father is English. I consider myself English and you couldn't tell from looking at me whether I am 100% English or not. Would I be counted in these statistics? Because I'm hardly a poster child for diversity.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    People draw pride from the empire because for ~500 years we were the apex predator that shaped the world in our image.
    I don't think that could be further from the truth.

    Betjeman (a decendant of immigrants who added a second "n" to the name to make it appear less Dutch and then dropped it again to make it appear less German) had it right; the Empire brought "democracy and proper drains". Most people see the Empire as an ineluctible force for good in the world.

    You can see it again with Kipling's tutorial to the Americans:

    "Fill full the mouth of Famine
    And bid the sickness cease;
    And when your goal is nearest
    The end for others sought,
    Watch sloth and heathen Folly
    Bring all your hopes to nought"
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    OK, but in this case I'm not really seeing how this relates to the thread topic in general. If you want to bemoan the decline in attention given to older literary classics, fair enough, but if you're not giving it as an example as some sort of lost English/British essence, then it seems to be a very tenuous jump in the thread.
    It is a very tenous jump, it just occurred to me as I am very into the novel just now, and it is right in the forefront of my mind. And it clearly speaks to a conception of historical Englishness. Read it and you will see what I mean.

    Tell you what, I'll try and take it in a slightly direction. It seems to me that we are currently rewriting our past history to reflect the present, and I think it has had the reverse of what we intended.

    To take the example of Ivanhoe there was a TV adaption of Robin Hood in which Friar Tuck was played by a black actor, as is now the fashion. Friar Tuck is fictional, but let's pretend he isn't. Isn't that just a dishonest representation? Not to put to fine a point on it a lie? An attempt to pretend that the twelfth century was really the twenty first? To reprise Scott, would Scottish people regard a Bonny Prince Charlie played by a black actor as distinctly odd? Or not blink an eyelid at that too?

    The reverse is true, also. The Eastenders soap is set in a fictional East End which is 90% white. Why aren't all the actors Bangladeshi? Isn't that also a lie?
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    I don't think that could be further from the truth.

    Betjeman (a decendant of immigrants who added a second "n" to the name to make it appear less Dutch and then dropped it again to make it appear less German) had it right; the Empire brought "democracy and proper drains". Most people see the Empire as an ineluctible force for good in the world.

    You can see it again with Kipling's tutorial to the Americans:

    "Fill full the mouth of Famine
    And bid the sickness cease;
    And when your goal is nearest
    The end for others sought,
    Watch sloth and heathen Folly
    Bring all your hopes to nought"
    Exactly, we shaped the world in our image. That does not mean however that we were no predatory nor that many don't take pride from us being top dog.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Exactly, we shaped the world in our image. That does not mean however that we were no predatory nor that many don't take pride from us being top dog.
    All I can say is that if it is true, and I have my doubts, it is a post-Imperialist fantasy by people who aren't quite sure which side we were on in WWII.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    Isn't that just a dishonest representation?
    Is Sarah Bernhardt's or Glenda Jackson's Hamlet dishonest.

    All drama involves a suspension of disbelief. What you are suggesting is that we are not allowed to suspend disbelief over race.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    Is Sarah Bernhardt's or Glenda Jackson's Hamlet dishonest.

    All drama involves a suspension of disbelief. What you are suggesting is that we are not allowed to suspend disbelief over race.
    Drama involves suspension of disbelief, true, and in Shakespeare's own time female characters were played by boys. I get that. (Although personally I would prefer to watch a fully fledged woman playing Desdemona or Cleopatra, or Ophelia. Rather than a pre pubescent boy smothered in lipstick. I'm funny like that I guess).

    My argument, though is that something more profound is going on, a conscious rewriting of history. To make the past conform to the present.

    And it is a uniquely western phenomenon. You don't get black actors starring in Noh plays. And the idea that you should would meet with bemusement and incredulity, I suggest.
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    Oh no, how tragic
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    You were rather a big fan of Corbyn: are you seriously telling me you've never voted for Jezza and his ilk, and nor would you ever? :holmes:
    I love him because he so well principled man but I doubt I would ever seriously vote for him for a number of reasons;mostly cos of my background and my upbringing. I'm more conservative than anything.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    I'm pretty sure some time ago you confirmed that your loyalty is to Syria before the UK and that you would seek a foreign partner (thus not strengthening the native genepool).

    Your not a bad person of course, but it suggests that at some level people like you don't see yourselves as one of us. If indeed you even wish to be so fully.
    Not so much allegiance but I feel I have more in common with Swiss Italians and Italians in general plus Syrians because of my background than say a native brit,mostly cos of the cultural aspect. Plus I don't know what you mean by native gene pool given that I'm not a native and most people still view me as a foreigner who just happens to have been born and raised in the U.K. The next guy I hope proposes to me is a native brit actually :mmm:
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I love him because he so well principled man
    Perhaps you missed this article, and the fact he tried to capture the youth vote on a classic switch and bait bit of bribery & bluff with this recent student debt clearout electoral scandal? :dontknow:

    I doubt I would ever seriously vote for him for a number of reasons; mostly cos of my background and my upbringing. I'm more conservative than anything
    Well, I suppose that's good to know, albeit that one would hope you are not rigidly conservative i.e. you see the merit in reforming things where doing so looks likely to be genuinely progressive
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Not so much allegiance but I feel I have more in common with Swiss Italians and Italians in general plus Syrians because of my background than say a native brit,mostly cos of the cultural aspect. Plus I don't know what you mean by native gene pool given that I'm not a native and most people still view me as a foreigner who just happens to have been born and raised in the U.K. The next guy I hope proposes to me is a native brit actually :mmm:
    :eek:
    You will be diluting the native gene pool with Syrian Arab blood
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    Yeah women are aging children later on in life which isn't really a good thing...

    How do we encourage native women to want to have kids or more kids?
    Firstly men have to be encouraged to marry younger. While most men dont propose tlll they are thirty and mostly marry women the same age then breeding kids gets postponed.

    Many girls would be happy to marry in the mid twenties as used to be normal but boyf is man-child. Most men only marry young if they find someone far better looking than them and are scared they will lose her.

    Bring back the married mans allowance, end child benefit when the mum hits forty so the younger you have them the more you get, help to buy only to married couples. There are many possible incentiives
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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    Perhaps you missed this article, and the fact he tried to capture the youth vote on a classic switch and bait bit of bribery & bluff with this recent student debt clearout electoral scandal? :dontknow:

    Well, I suppose that's good to know, albeit that one would hope you are not rigidly conservative i.e. you see the merit in reforming things where doing so looks likely to be genuinely progressive
    Of Course. But i would rather be with a man who was a conservative like me but lie not ultra conservative oh and seeing as its on topic,I would also recommend we encourage women to have kids earlier on rather than leaving it to their late 20s
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    :eek:
    You will be diluting the native gene pool with Syrian Arab blood
    The native gene pool has already been diluted since the 1950's, what difference is a bit more going to make?
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    (Original post by queen-bee)
    I would rather be with a man who was a conservative like me but like not ultra conservative
    About a 6 or 7 on a scale of one to Hitler :judge:

    I would also recommend we encourage women to have kids earlier on rather than leaving it to their late 20s
    Correct answer. Clearly current 'encouragement' is absolutely failing, however. We need more effective norms, institutions, values, and programs of education and incentives. Have a nasty feeling the elite rather want formerly strong, fertile, and united white European nations to be hollowed out, and usurped, in demographic terms (ahead of the next phase they have in store) :sad:
 
 
 
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