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    paulbarlow
    Firstly, thanks for your excellent service as a nurse
    I've just finished after 30 years
    Just a couple of points.
    It doesn't take much research to disprove the 30k starting figure for graduates. Those are few and far between!! It's a myth, doesn't happen
    Secondly, whilst compared to rest of world 28k may not be the top in terms of pay but a nurse on that should never be using a food bank
    Families survive on far less
    I have noticed more and more since finishing that, whilst people are sympathetic to the 1%, they are not sympathetic to, and are indeed angry at the complaints of low pay.
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    interesting thread
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    (Original post by Sammylou40)
    paulbarlow
    Firstly, thanks for your excellent service as a nurse
    I've just finished after 30 years
    Just a couple of points.
    It doesn't take much research to disprove the 30k starting figure for graduates. Those are few and far between!! It's a myth, doesn't happen
    Secondly, whilst compared to rest of world 28k may not be the top in terms of pay but a nurse on that should never be using a food bank
    Families survive on far less
    I have noticed more and more since finishing that, whilst people are sympathetic to the 1%, they are not sympathetic to, and are indeed angry at the complaints of low pay.
    i never said we were poor. but fact is its a struggle to run the home. yes we are large 6 kids on a croft in scotland so our living expenses are more than the average. its the younger newly qualified with a lone to pay back that will be poor. the wife is cleverer than me she is a band 6 2 degrees and studying for a masters. her pay really does not represent here skill set and experience. we were looking at canada last year if we opted for a remote nunivik community the wife could be on £90000 this is a very simular funding system.
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    (Original post by paulbarlow)
    i never said we were poor. but fact is its a struggle to run the home. yes we are large 6 kids on a croft in scotland so our living expenses are more than the average. its the younger newly qualified with a lone to pay back that will be poor. the wife is cleverer than me she is a band 6 2 degrees and studying for a masters. her pay really does not represent here skill set and experience. we were looking at canada last year if we opted for a remote nunivik community the wife could be on £90000 this is a very simular funding system.
    Do you not think it's worth pursing a nursing degree now they got rid of the bursary?
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    its the 50k debt im worried about. that will be taken back at 9% of your gross pay. its a big chunk to lose. being changed nearly 6% interest is harsh to. we provide a service to this country a public sector commitment should be used to pay off the loan for every year in the nhs a bit is paid off.
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    (Original post by paulbarlow)
    its not difficult to see why a student will opt for a different future. first a nurse does not earn massively over the average wage in 2015 it was £27,600 so apart from the very top band 5s nurses are paid below average pay.
    conveniently forgetting that the majority of nursers working in 24/7 settings earn 20 to 25 % extra above their headline pay simply by going to work through unsocial hours payments

    some nurses earn considerably more through unsociable hours pay either

    a) because they request a predominately unsocial hours working pattern as a Flexible working request ( nights only contracts very very very rare in the NHS due to justifable concerns over clinical currency)
    b) they work in service which has an out of hours focus ( such as the evening / night community nursing services, OOH primary care services, some urgent care services )
    c) they'll take the *****y end of the stick as grab becasue they don;t mind working nights / weekends etc


    the median starting salary for graduates is £30,000
    a reliable source for that ... especially given the numbers of graduates absorbed by the health professions and teaching , plus of course the salary of the OF1

    so a nurses are not paid over the average wage they are paid badly in comparison. f we add the unpaid overtime and untaken meal breaks that figure should be higher. i know in my case im working 4-5 hours each week unpaid. im working at a level 6 and paid as a 5.
    thanks for demonstrating just how insulated fro mthe realities of real life and insular you are ...

    what JE factors make you consider yourself to be working at Band 6 level ... please bear in mind before answering this , i have worked in a role which was banded as 6 following a full JE process and appeals , where both the former E grades who eventually got 6 and the former F grade NPs who eventually got 7 worked through the enitreity of our role, fortuantely with up ot date Job descriptions recently recruited to ...


    [quote]
    paying a decent wages promotes the growth of the economy. it simple the more money circulating in the economy the more is bought and the take for the government increases. stopping pay causes a contraction in cash circulation. more money being saved and a lower take for the tax man.
    [quote]

    a bizarre mixture of economic theory there, but relies on the magic money tree comrade !

    unless zippy is on the earlier pension scheme its not as great as it was. m paying 9.3% towards my pension.
    insulated and insular again , even the latest NHS pension far outstrips the legal minimums which is what most private secotr employers now offer as many of the better performing private pensions closed to new entrants as they weren;t auto enrollment compliant

    bin men in Birmingham were earning 45000 a year in 2011,
    i do love soem of these figures that are thrown up and when you dig down what you actually find is that the figures like that are for legacy contract s which a small number of people are on and if they want to change their job in anyway they'll lose it and in the caseo f binmen it;s often the driver rate , given the a cat C licence holder can walk away in a job paying near the median at time and the drivers are often considered team leaders ... ( same appliesi n removals driver is eam leader + HGV licence holder = good wage , others are minimum wage or agency , and there;zsa small number of legacy contract drivers not considered team leaders who work with a small number of team leaders who are perhaps only C1 holders rather than C or C+E)

    a postie gets upto 24000.
    for a job that includes significant unsocial hours , and has a risk profile that means 'danger money' comes into play ... i'm guessing you probably weren;t in clinical practice when AfC came in or were just a neophyte D grade who got straight transferred to band 5 ... ever done a full JE ?


    we then see the sudden imposition of student loans for both tuition and living costs. they are faced with a bill just short of £50000.that will be deducted at 9% of there wage ithat added 9%is basically an extra 10% pay cut. they have made it compulsory to have a degree then they make us pay for it. and we sit back and allow them. so a newly qualified nurses in 3 years time will in real terms be down 24% that it getting to the point of piss taking.
    and despite your supposed prowess you can;t see the issue with the current situation with regard to HCP fees and loans as one of the reasons the wages are depressed for these staff ... ( remember docs and dentists have been on 'normal' student funding for most of their course for a lot longer ... and this is reflected in their pay scale calculation)
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    (Original post by Pennyjoann)
    Pay increments are yearly you used to get them automatically, the nhs trust I work at has now said staff must apply for the increments and it's based on whether all your training is up to date. Good way to make sure everyone is up to date I guess!
    Incremental progression has always been dependiant on beign up to date with training and PDR, just in the past it wasn;t enforced , usually becasue to appease Uni(s)on pressure.
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    (Original post by justme13)
    Ok then why is that countries with publicly funded healthcare like Canada can afford to pay their nurses significantly more than the UK.

    New graduate RN pay is $31/hr and increases each year topping out after 8 years at $45/hr... no where near the same pay as UK trained nurses
    Canada , like Australia has a problem with a shortage , and at a certain level of shortage the only solution is to import, as you can't grow your own without the acadmic staff and clinical supervisors to provide pre- and post reg training. I'm also guessing you are forgettign that they continue to have 2nd level Nurses in both Canda and Aus and consequently , first level nurses are automatically in a role more akin to an E grade ...

    also many of the places you are talking aobut with regard to higher pay have higher standards for level 1 registration in terms of academic acheivement even if the practice requirements, like the EU practice requires were modelled on Uk traditional training modified for a 50 / 50 placement / uni split rather and 66/ 34 or 70 / 30 as seen with traditional training ...


    the NHS used to do this with Doctors in training , importing large numbers of SHOs and registrars from Africa / Carribean / India +pakistan to populate the roats , on the basis that a proportion of them would return home Post CCT which the prestige of an UK CCT and UK college memberships ... it weas also a sort of international aid thing ...
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    (Original post by paulbarlow)
    its the 50k debt im worried about. that will be taken back at 9% of your gross pay. its a big chunk to lose. being changed nearly 6% interest is harsh to. we provide a service to this country a public sector commitment should be used to pay off the loan for every year in the nhs a bit is paid off.
    The problem is the leftist idiot factor would insist it's only for NHS directly employed staff becasue of their fetishistic obsession with Clause 4 ... this would completely ruin recruitment and retention to general practice ( which they are under the delusion is an NHS owned service ) and care homes which is parlous as it is and would just be inflationary for the private providers of elective surgery and community services ... but never let reality get i nthe way of pushing the fantasy time that has never existed in the NHS ... really upsets the leftist when you point out that the NHS has relied on private providers for 80 ish % of patient interactions ever since 1948.
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    we seem to have a right wing ex nurse on here. your 5 years out of date. apart from the odd late shift our antisocial hours is by being called out whilst on call. we get £15 per day for being on call. if we have a busy on call night or two we end up working 48 plus without decent sleep. for this we would get about 20 quid extra. when im running a case load making planning decisions and running mdt meetings and being responsible for the care in a district i say im working at band 6.
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    (Original post by zippyRN)
    Canada , like Australia has a problem with a shortage , and at a certain level of shortage the only solution is to import, as you can't grow your own without the acadmic staff and clinical supervisors to provide pre- and post reg training. I'm also guessing you are forgettign that they continue to have 2nd level Nurses in both Canda and Aus and consequently , first level nurses are automatically in a role more akin to an E grade ...

    also many of the places you are talking aobut with regard to higher pay have higher standards for level 1 registration in terms of academic acheivement even if the practice requirements, like the EU practice requires were modelled on Uk traditional training modified for a 50 / 50 placement / uni split rather and 66/ 34 or 70 / 30 as seen with traditional training ...


    the NHS used to do this with Doctors in training , importing large numbers of SHOs and registrars from Africa / Carribean / India +pakistan to populate the roats , on the basis that a proportion of them would return home Post CCT which the prestige of an UK CCT and UK college memberships ... it weas also a sort of international aid thing ...
    1. I am from Canada and there is no shortage of nurses rather an oversupply, they are no longer on the skilled worker list. Most new graduate nurses work on a locum or casual basis in hospital (still get 40 hours but not permanent employment) for years before getting a full time contract. Getting licensed as a foreign nurse is nearly impossible and can take up to 2 years including extra courses

    2. There has been a reintroduction of 2nd level nurses here (nursing associates) but I doubt there will be any changes in the RN salaries

    3. The main reason for Canadian nurses salaries being high is they are unionized and advocated for by their unions i.e. Ontario Nurses Association - ONA
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    i wish our unions were as effective then.
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    (Original post by justme13)
    1. I am from Canada and there is no shortage of nurses rather an oversupply, they are no longer on the skilled worker list. Most new graduate nurses work on a locum or casual basis in hospital (still get 40 hours but not permanent employment) for years before getting a full time contract. Getting licensed as a foreign nurse is nearly impossible and can take up to 2 years including extra courses

    2. There has been a reintroduction of 2nd level nurses here (nursing associates) but I doubt there will be any changes in the RN salaries

    3. The main reason for Canadian nurses salaries being high is they are unionized and advocated for by their unions i.e. Ontario Nurses Association - ONA
    Which skilled worker list are you looking at? When I've been looking at emigration to Canada in the past few months nursing is still on the list. And when I've looked into job vacancies there seems to be tonnes of them? Have heard it's extremely difficult for a foreign nurse to get registered though :/
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    ive looked at it they make you jump through multiple training courses it can take nearly 2 years to get registered. you require peds and mental health skills. not forgetting we have to do an english test.
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    (Original post by paulbarlow)
    ive looked at it they make you jump through multiple training courses it can take nearly 2 years to get registered. you require peds and mental health skills. not forgetting we have to do an english test.
    Haha I was literally just looking now, my English is very good thank you! How funny to have to prove you can speak and read English when it's your first language. Ah well, I will move to Canada one day, by any means possible no matter how long or how much money it costs. I'm good at jumping through hoops when I want something
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    (Original post by Pennyjoann)
    Which skilled worker list are you looking at? When I've been looking at emigration to Canada in the past few months nursing is still on the list. And when I've looked into job vacancies there seems to be tonnes of them? Have heard it's extremely difficult for a foreign nurse to get registered though :/

    Hey I'm a registered nurse who has moved from the Canada to the UK (unfortunately due to personal reasons). I am Canadian by birth so I can give you pretty good insight into how nursing in Ontario at least works

    - the Canadian government has been cracking down hugely on the immigration situation and the number of people who are allowed on the skilled worked list and visas. I believe a lot of RNs are still able to immigrate on the ESA (but so can anyone)

    - there are a ton of postings but all of these usually go to internal staff first, so the posts are made public but internal applicants already working for the hospital will be given priority

    - getting work is not difficult but you will not initially be hired at a full time employee, you will work on a ad hoc basis. Similar to working as a bank employee. I was a casual (or bank) nurse for over 3 years before I got a full time position at my hospital. You will need to be flexible and willing to pick up hours, I worked at 2 different hospitals in order to make full time hours. After building up your seniority you are usually considered for a full time post. Our hours are 12 hour shifts, 4 on and 5 off. So 2 day shifts and 2 night shifts, then 5 days off.

    - getting registered as a foreign trained nurse is a absolute nightmare, even american trained nurses have issues with this. First you apply through NNAS, usually you're asked to do a bridging program or a long OSCE type examination. The bridging programs have really long wait lists due to limited enrolment, something like 2-3 years. The OSCE is the best bet for most applicants but includes: maternity, paediatrics and mental health because Canadian nurses are generalist trained. You will then be asked to take extra courses if you are deemed deficient in any of these areas. The process can take up to 1-2 years


    ** also I'm glad you're thinking of moving to Canada, it's a beautiful country and I miss it dearly. The pay for nurses and much better and the lifestyle is x10 better. Wish you all the best luck in the future and hopefully I'll be back there one day as well!

    http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/work/iec/eligibility.asp this is probably your best bet for immigration to canada

    Also you can always live in a town or city near the American border and get a US nursing license, it's possible to travel across the border for work and I know many nurses who do that. Many border cities like Niagara Falls have a huge amount of residents who travel a short 30-40 minutes across the border to work, plus with the US dollar being much stronger the pay is better
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    (Original post by justme13)
    Hey I'm a registered nurse who has moved from the Canada to the UK (unfortunately due to personal reasons). I am Canadian by birth so I can give you pretty good insight into how nursing in Ontario at least works

    - the Canadian government has been cracking down hugely on the immigration situation and the number of people who are allowed on the skilled worked list and visas. I believe a lot of RNs are still able to immigrate on the ESA (but so can anyone)

    - there are a ton of postings but all of these usually go to internal staff first, so the posts are made public but internal applicants already working for the hospital will be given priority

    - getting work is not difficult but you will not initially be hired at a full time employee, you will work on a ad hoc basis. Similar to working as a bank employee. I was a casual (or bank) nurse for over 3 years before I got a full time position at my hospital. You will need to be flexible and willing to pick up hours, I worked at 2 different hospitals in order to make full time hours. After building up your seniority you are usually considered for a full time post. Our hours are 12 hour shifts, 4 on and 5 off. So 2 day shifts and 2 night shifts, then 5 days off.

    - getting registered as a foreign trained nurse is a absolute nightmare, even american trained nurses have issues with this. First you apply through NNAS, usually you're asked to do a bridging program or a long OSCE type examination. The bridging programs have really long wait lists due to limited enrolment, something like 2-3 years. The OSCE is the best bet for most applicants but includes: maternity, paediatrics and mental health because Canadian nurses are generalist trained. You will then be asked to take extra courses if you are deemed deficient in any of these areas. The process can take up to 1-2 years
    Thank you for your insight it's very helpful and gives me a better idea of what it'll be like

    I'm looking at BC, it's a long term plan as Im not even a qualified nurse in the UK yet, I start my degree next month! Ive read once qualified here I could potentially register as an LPN is it? In Canada, without doing extra courses. But the description of an LPNs job role sounds exactly the same as my job role as a HCA, which seems crazy to me! But hey their country their rules, I'll see what the crack is once I've qualified here 😆 if I have to do extra courses I shall, I wanted to be dual qualified, wish it was easier in the UK to be qualified in more than one speciality.
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    (Original post by justme13)
    Hey I'm a registered nurse who has moved from the Canada to the UK (unfortunately due to personal reasons). I am Canadian by birth so I can give you pretty good insight into how nursing in Ontario at least works

    - the Canadian government has been cracking down hugely on the immigration situation and the number of people who are allowed on the skilled worked list and visas. I believe a lot of RNs are still able to immigrate on the ESA (but so can anyone)

    - there are a ton of postings but all of these usually go to internal staff first, so the posts are made public but internal applicants already working for the hospital will be given priority

    - getting work is not difficult but you will not initially be hired at a full time employee, you will work on a ad hoc basis. Similar to working as a bank employee. I was a casual (or bank) nurse for over 3 years before I got a full time position at my hospital. You will need to be flexible and willing to pick up hours, I worked at 2 different hospitals in order to make full time hours. After building up your seniority you are usually considered for a full time post. Our hours are 12 hour shifts, 4 on and 5 off. So 2 day shifts and 2 night shifts, then 5 days off.

    - getting registered as a foreign trained nurse is a absolute nightmare, even american trained nurses have issues with this. First you apply through NNAS, usually you're asked to do a bridging program or a long OSCE type examination. The bridging programs have really long wait lists due to limited enrolment, something like 2-3 years. The OSCE is the best bet for most applicants but includes: maternity, paediatrics and mental health because Canadian nurses are generalist trained. You will then be asked to take extra courses if you are deemed deficient in any of these areas. The process can take up to 1-2 years


    ** also I'm glad you're thinking of moving to Canada, it's a beautiful country and I miss it dearly. The pay for nurses and much better and the lifestyle is x10 better. Wish you all the best luck in the future and hopefully I'll be back there one day as well!

    http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/work/iec/eligibility.asp this is probably your best bet for immigration to canada

    Also you can always live in a town or city near the American border and get a US nursing license, it's possible to travel across the border for work and I know many nurses who do that. Many border cities like Niagara Falls have a huge amount of residents who travel a short 30-40 minutes across the border to work, plus with the US dollar being much stronger the pay is better
    I'm sorry that you have had to move here, I think it's an awful place! I want to be a nurse but here I feel they are very undervalued, I want a better life for my future kids and I'd be lying if the mountains weren't a huge factor in my decision. Snowboarding at an indoor slope quickly gets old! 😑

    Thank you, and thanks again for the info and tips I hope you make your way home one day!
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    (Original post by Pennyjoann)
    Thank you for your insight it's very helpful and gives me a better idea of what it'll be like

    I'm looking at BC, it's a long term plan as Im not even a qualified nurse in the UK yet, I start my degree next month! Ive read once qualified here I could potentially register as an LPN is it? In Canada, without doing extra courses. But the description of an LPNs job role sounds exactly the same as my job role as a HCA, which seems crazy to me! But hey their country their rules, I'll see what the crack is once I've qualified here 😆 if I have to do extra courses I shall, I wanted to be dual qualified, wish it was easier in the UK to be qualified in more than one speciality.
    You can register as LPN (which is a second level nurse- similar to the new nursing associate) but I would discourage it. LPNs don't have much if any pay increases in their careers and there isn't a lot of variety in it. I would stick it out and try to get registered as a RN in BC, many UK trained nurses have done it but it takes a while.

    I wouldn't personally settle for anything less than RN because LPNs have little to no career progression. It will be easier for you to register if you are trained in more than one speciality. BC has Registered Psychiatric Nurses which is the UK equivalent to mental health nurses, so you probably won't even have to do extra courses to qualify in that.

    You should be able to do the youth experience visa, and once you get a job you'll likely be allowed to stay on as a RN.

    Also a clarification of LPNs- I was an LPN prior to completing my degree training to become a RN. LPNs are basically like the old enrolled nurses here in the UK and they new role of nursing associate which they have created. THey are able to medication management, insert IVs etc but can't deal with high risk patient's such as ICU or do skills like picc lines. I chose to continue my education because my pay as a LPN would have been stagnant my whole life.
 
 
 
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