Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

I just finished OITNB season 5 (i know, i'm a bit late to the party) Watch

Announcements
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    Ok so if the title wasn't obvious enough, i'm gonna talk about the very end of OITNB season 5 so if you haven't watched it yet, I think this is a fair spoiler warning because i can't be asked to put the whole post inside a spoiler tag.


    !!!!WARNING SPOILERS!!!!

    I absolutely love how deep the ending is, with red freeing piscatella right before he's accidentally shot dead. Because to him all prisoners are cold hearted, mindless, beings who don't deserve common decency, and then there's red who to him is the worst of the worst. To him, red just doesn't have any humanity and is incapable of any humility whatsoever, and based on that he treats her with the same lack of humanity, going so far as to reveal this lack of humanity to the people she cares for by cutting her hair. Then, after he's subdued red wants to torture a confession out of him and then taystee nearly shoots him, after all of which red just lets him go. She could have easily justified shooting him on the spot but she actually gives him some compassion after everything, all the abuse he gave her, all the other inmates and that other inmate he actually killed. I genuinely think he changed in that moment. I think anyone apart from affectionless psychopaths would change if they were in the same position. And that means I can't loath him as much because he's finally realised where he's been going wrong all this time. And then, that epiphany is all for nothing since not a few minutes later he's shot dead by accident. Not even on purpose, he's death was due to another man's incompetence which to me makes the last few minutes of that particular story line sadly ironic. Anyway, I think what red did is a great commentary on how an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth is just BS.

    Thoughts...?
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mrsuperguy)
    Ok so if the title wasn't obvious enough, i'm gonna talk about the very end of OITNB season 5 so if you haven't watched it yet, I think this is a fair spoiler warning because i can't be asked to put the whole post inside a spoiler tag.



    !!!!WARNING SPOILERS!!!!


    I absolutely love how deep the ending is, with red freeing piscatella right before he's accidentally shot dead. Because to him all prisoners are cold hearted, mindless, beings who don't deserve common decency, and then there's red who to him is the worst of the worst. To him, red just doesn't have any humanity and is incapable of any humility whatsoever, and based on that he treats her with the same lack of humanity, going so far as to reveal this lack of humanity to the people she cares for by cutting her hair. Then, after he's subdued red wants to torture a confession out of him and then taystee nearly shoots him, after all of which red just lets him go. She could have easily justified shooting him on the spot but she actually gives him some compassion after everything, all the abuse he gave her, all the other inmates and that other inmate he actually killed. I genuinely think he changed in that moment. I think anyone apart from affectionless psychopaths would change if they were in the same position. And that means I can't loath him as much because he's finally realised where he's been going wrong all this time. And then, that epiphany is all for nothing since not a few minutes later he's shot dead by accident. Not even on purpose, he's death was due to another man's incompetence which to me makes the last few minutes of that particular story line sadly ironic. Anyway, I think what red did is a great commentary on how an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth is just BS.

    Thoughts...?
    I never thought about the ending like that before!! This season was just so intense and the ending was incredible!! What do you think will happen to the people in the pool?? I hope nothing bad bc they're the characters that really make the show (plus sofia).
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Sophiegraceb)
    I never thought about the ending like that before!! This season was just so intense and the ending was incredible!! What do you think will happen to the people in the pool?? I hope nothing bad bc they're the characters that really make the show (plus sofia).
    yeah i get what you mean, the tension in the 1st half or so was soooo high because i constantly thought the leader of the latina clique (can't remember her name) was gonna kill one of the COs. I dunno what's gonna happen to those guys. I wouldn't be surprised if susan gets injured because one of the riot cops gets spooked by her or something but i really couldn't say for sure.
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    Maybe I'm cynical, but his death seemed like a bit of a cop out, like they weren't sure where they could take the character from there and didn't think he would service the plot so just got rid of him. I tried to find something poetic in it, but not much comes to mind. His arc was simple and not altogether surprising but effective, a nice portrayal of a man channeling loss and anguish into hatred, often extending far beyond those who actually deserved it. He was not one-note evil like the other guard (I forget his name, you know which one I mean), and he was understandable, if fundamentally illogical. OITNB aims to humanize prisoners, which it does well (albeit less so this series than before - while I enjoyed it, it was somewhat weaker, I think), and it's good that they don't resort to totally demonizing the "villains" of the piece in order to get this across but instead show us their motivations and histories as well.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mrsuperguy)
    yeah i get what you mean, the tension in the 1st half or so was soooo high because i constantly thought the leader of the latina clique (can't remember her name) was gonna kill one of the COs. I dunno what's gonna happen to those guys. I wouldn't be surprised if susan gets injured because one of the riot cops gets spooked by her or something but i really dunno.

    I bloody hope not!! Her backstory in season four made me weep!! Hopefully if they just say that they were hiding from the riot they won't get harmed. And Ruiz (the dominican clique leader) really pissed me off for the first half the way she was acting so hard and started the whole thing before going outside with alex half way through and pretending like nothing happened.
    Also the methheads were beyond annoying this season and the storyline about Tucky and Doughnuts was awful both morally and to watch.

    If you're on Facebook i'd recommend joining the official OITNB discussion groups
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Sophiegraceb)
    I bloody hope not!! Her backstory in season four made me weep!! Hopefully if they just say that they were hiding from the riot they won't get harmed. And Ruiz (the dominican clique leader) really pissed me off for the first half the way she was acting so hard and started the whole thing before going outside with alex half way through and pretending like nothing happened.
    Also the methheads were beyond annoying this season and the storyline about Tucky and Doughnuts was awful both morally and to watch.

    If you're on Facebook i'd recommend joining the official OITNB discussion groups
    tbh ruiz kinda sent chills down my spine in the chapel when i didn't know if she was gonna kill one of the COs. and then i thought the thing with the extension not being in her file actually brought a lot of humanity to her. as for the methheads, i guess there just had to be something to fill that space between the beginning and the end of the season where nothing particularly important happens. I liked how cruel they were, especially to dogget (like as in they're good characters) but tbh i think they're kinda meant to be annoying. as for dogget & coates, didn't he like beg her for forgivness? not that, that excuse him raping her but it at least shows he has remorse and makes their whole relationship a little less creepy



    (Original post by 13 1 20 8 42)
    Maybe I'm cynical, but his death seemed like a bit of a cop out, like they weren't sure where they could take the character from there and didn't think he would service the plot so just got rid of him. I tried to find something poetic in it, but not much comes to mind. His arc was simple and not altogether surprising but effective, a nice portrayal of a man channeling loss and anguish into hatred, often extending far beyond those who actually deserved it. He was not one-note evil like the other guard (I forget his name, you know which one I mean), and he was understandable, if fundamentally illogical. OITNB aims to humanize prisoners, which it does well (albeit less so this series than before - while I enjoyed it, it was somewhat weaker, I think), and it's good that they don't resort to totally demonizing the "villains" of the piece in order to get this across but instead show us their motivations and histories as well.
    i don't think it was a cop out. as i said, it's kinda sadly ironic considering how he's just fundamentally changed as a person and I think because of that, he could have easily quit & confessed to what he did at the other prison and to abusing inmates at litchfield and possibly go down a similar path as baily did. i think the contrast between those 2 characters going down such similar paths but where one is 100% responsible and where the other is arguably not responsible at all would have been really interesting.
    Offline

    12
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by mrsuperguy)
    tbh ruiz kinda sent chills down my spine in the chapel when i didn't know if she was gonna kill one of the COs. and then i thought the thing with the extension not being in her file actually brought a lot of humanity to her. as for the methheads, i guess there just had to be something to fill that space between the beginning and the end of the season where nothing particularly important happens. I liked how cruel they were, especially to dogget (like as in they're good characters) but tbh i think they're kinda meant to be annoying. as for dogget & coates, didn't he like beg her for forgivness? not that, that excuse him raping her but it at least shows he has remorse and makes their whole relationship a little less creepy





    i don't think it was a cop out. as i said, it's kinda sadly ironic considering how he's just fundamentally changed as a person and I think because of that, he could have easily quit & confessed to what he did at the other prison and to abusing inmates at litchfield and possibly go down a similar path as baily did. i think the contrast between those 2 characters going down such similar paths but where one is 100% responsible and where the other is arguably not responsible at all would have been really interesting.
    I forgot about the stuff not going on her file!! sorry i watched it ages ago all in one go about three days after it came out!! I think Bailey Piscatella and Doughnuts are all different apples from the same tree. They all represent different aspects of white male privilege. Bailey (a straight white man) killed Poussey (a black lesbian) and thought he could absolve his guilt via an apology (similar to the scores of young white american men let off crimes that a black man never would be). Piscatella was an example of almost pure evil who abused his institutional power for his own sadistic desires. Doughnuts represents unchecked desire that the patriarchal and guard/prisoner dynamics enable, as well as emotional abuse (which is imo what his apology and an attempt at a proper relationship was).
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Sophiegraceb)
    I forgot about the stuff not going on her file!! sorry i watched it ages ago all in one go about three days after it came out!! I think Bailey Piscatella and Doughnuts are all different apples from the same tree. They all represent different aspects of white male privilege. Bailey (a straight white man) killed Poussey (a black lesbian) and thought he could absolve his guilt via an apology (similar to the scores of young white american men let off crimes that a black man never would be). Piscatella was an example of almost pure evil who abused his institutional power for his own sadistic desires. Doughnuts represents unchecked desire that the patriarchal and guard/prisoner dynamics enable, as well as emotional abuse (which is imo what his apology and an attempt at a proper relationship was).
    ok, i think you've forgotten a few details about baily. baily's apology is in the last couple episodes. before that he attempts suicide (it turns out he just drank non-toxic dye) and confesses to a couple of cops at the reception of a police station and begs to be arrested, but because he comes across as a bit mad they just think he's delusional and keep him overnight and let him go next morning.The pain of what he did is killing him and he wants acknowledgment of his wrongdoing in the form of some kind of punishment, which isn't at all like the how we see the white cops shooting black people to which you are referring.

    i agree with you about piscatella if you ignore his story from the other prison where he falls for one of the male inmates and kills another inmate when they attack the one he's in love with. I think that must have set off some kind of pavlovian association of prisoners with that one inmate that attacked his lover and that's why he abuses the inmates. I think humphery is a better representation of pure sadistic evil.

    as for doughnuts, yeah i can get that. since you make me think of it i think he does represent a very exaggerated patriarchy but it's also not an accurate one by any stretch.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Break up or unrequited love?
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.