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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    Arguably, Catholicism itself is not a religion but a denomination of Christianity.
    What the ****? Explain.
    Catholicism was the one true Christian faith, other Christian sects, such as the Church of England are in schism, set up as a faction.
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    (Original post by wiwarin_mir)
    But amny things that are used in the catholic church are in the bible.
    Of course, this is the fundamental difference between Anglicans and Catholics. Catholics quite rightly place emphasis also on doctrine. Mere blindless adherence to the Bible would make us Anglicans, or worse still Pharisees.
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    (Original post by wiwarin_mir)
    I myself, being of evangelical/baptist origins, believe that the bible must be taken as complete truth. Catholics are under the power of the pope, so they must believe whatever he tells them to, due to papal infalibility, so it can be confusing.
    Wrong again about infallibility. Look it up. Of course you only believe in the Bible, you hardly have doctrine, do you? Bible complete truth? Including treatment of women ect?
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    Hear hear Pius!
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    (Original post by Pius)
    Wrong again about infallibility. Look it up. Of course you only believe in the Bible, you hardly have doctrine, do you? Bible complete truth? Including treatment of women ect?
    The treatment of women by certain people in the church is wrong. Women cannot teach men, it is a fact, there should be no female clergypeople.
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    Its not an issue of women not being able to teach men, i've met quite capable female teachers!!! The issue is, i beleive, that God intended clergy to be male; a father figure rather than a mother figure as the roles are quite different.

    Oh by the way, i am 'the girl' her refers to. Yes, i know what i am talking about i think although there are gaps on my knowledge.
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    (Original post by PeoplesPrincess)
    Its not an issue of women not being able to teach men, i've met quite capable female teachers!!! The issue is, i beleive, that God intended clergy to be male; a father figure rather than a mother figure as the roles are quite different.

    Oh by the way, i am 'the girl' her refers to. Yes, i know what i am talking about i think although there are gaps on my knowledge.
    The entire issue is based in the garden of eden, it was eve who listened to the serpant and fell first, therefore the ministry was given the men.
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    (Original post by NDGAARONDI)
    The Emperor you chose iss indeed correct.
    No, the Catholic Church has existed from the time of Christ's instructions to Peter, it has not, however, always been known as the Catholic Church.
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    (Original post by wiwarin_mir)
    I do not think the pope should lord over christians, as no one should be greater than others, only they perform different jobs.
    From the time of Peter, we had a Vicar of Christ on earth. He doesn't 'lord over' he guides, like Christ guided. Sheep need a shepherd. And certainly he doesn't regard himself as 'great'.
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    (Original post by zizero)
    I must confess my knowledge of christianity is very limited, but that surprises me a lot... I was pretty sure that God gave man free will.

    Anyway, how can the concept of sin arise then? How can good and evil exist within humanity if people can't make those choices? How can God judge a person if he knew beforehand what that person would do, if he didn't even give that person a chance to become a good/bad person?
    Of course God gives all free will. But God knows how man will use this gift of freedom. This doesn't mean he determines it.
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    (Original post by wiwarin_mir)
    The entire issue is based in the garden of eden, it was eve who listened to the serpant and fell first, therefore the ministry was given the men.
    Pretty please don't tell me that you think that's sufficient theological justification for not having women ordained?
    You listed the assertion that women cannot teach men as a fact, rather than a theological point. Does this mean you don't agree with female teachers in schools? I want to see some justification for that, preferably not the Biblical passage that Paul wrote (I always forget the book, it might be Corinthians) as you claimed it to be fact rather than theology.
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    (Original post by Pius)
    From the time of Peter, we had a Vicar of Christ on earth. He doesn't 'lord over' he guides, like Christ guided. Sheep need a shepherd. And certainly he doesn't regard himself as 'great'.
    A shepherd with powers of infallibility certainly seems much more like a lord to me!

    (Original post by Pius)
    As for your second point about a Pope, read where Jesus instructs that his ministry continue on earth, 'Peter, on this rock build my Church, what you build on earth will be bound on earth, what you lose on earth will be lost in heaven.' Peter becomes the Vicar of Christ on earth, aka Pope. The Catholic Church is Apostolic, founded by Christ. Hence it is the True Faith. Founded not by man, but by God.
    I fail to see how Jesus instructing Peter to spread his word equates to infallibility. The fact remains that these men are human just like the rest of us. Nobody's perfect and nobody on earth should be considered infallible. The catholic church was not founded by Christ but by Peter and Paul. Founded by man (on behalf of God you might say?), but not by God.

    By the way, the 'Vicars of Christ' didn't always have powers of infalliblity 'given by God'. This was introduced by Pope Gregory VII in his Dictatus which stated:

    The pope can be judged by no one on earth.
    The Roman church has never erred, nor can it err until the end of time.
    The pope alone can depose bishops.
    He alone is entitled to imperial insignia.
    He can dethrone emperors and kings and absolve their subjects from allegiance.
    All princes are obliged to kiss his feet.
    His legates, even when not priests, have precedence over all bishops.
    A rightly elected pope is, without question, a saint, made so by the merits of Peter.


    Some kinda shepherd eh?
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    (Original post by lala)
    Pretty please don't tell me that you think that's sufficient theological justification for not having women ordained?
    You listed the assertion that women cannot teach men as a fact, rather than a theological point. Does this mean you don't agree with female teachers in schools? I want to see some justification for that, preferably not the Biblical passage that Paul wrote (I always forget the book, it might be Corinthians) as you claimed it to be fact rather than theology.
    I am referring to teaching biblical truths, not anything else. Women may teach children or other females, or at least discuss, but they cannot preach to men.
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    (Original post by wiwarin_mir)
    The treatment of women by certain people in the church is wrong. Women cannot teach men, it is a fact, there should be no female clergypeople.
    wtf?? You're being sarcastic of course? I can't believe people still hold on to views like this in this day and age. What is it that makes females incapable of teaching men or being clergypeople? I would really like an explanation to that.
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    (Original post by Pius)
    Of course God gives all free will. But God knows how man will use this gift of freedom. This doesn't mean he determines it.
    If God knows how man will use his gift of freedom, that means humans actions are predetermined (which - I agree - does not necessarily mean God has determined them).

    But if human actions are predetermined, that means we have no free will.

    Therefore God cannot give man the gift of free will and at the same time know how man will use it.
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    (Original post by wiwarin_mir)
    I am referring to teaching biblical truths, not anything else. Women may teach children or other females, or at least discuss, but they cannot preach to men.
    I'm delighted that you didn't attempt to defend that as a biological truth, though I think it would be better if you refrained from calling something a fact when the only argument you have for it is scriptural: it isn't going to impress anyone except other biblical literalists.

    You might enjoy these passages on the key role of women in the Bible btw (i'm not a literalist but always best to talk to people in their own language methinks).
    John 19:25-30 where it is WOMEN who are with Jesus as he is crucified and do their best to comfort him (compare with18:25-7 when Jesus is betrayed by a MAN). Also the whole of John 20. Guess who finds Jesus after the resurrection. Yes kids. A WOMAN !!!!!!! Frankly by the looks of things, some of the men in the NT cold have used a bit of teaching from their female counterparts.
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    Well, seeing as this has reached an end point in my opinion, I shall now close it.
 
 
 

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