The catholic church Watch

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wiwarin_mir
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#161
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#161
(Original post by AntiMagicMan)
But seeing as how we evolved anyway, your whole argument is a bit pointless.
If you would read the first post, I did say we were not going to be going into that. this is a teological dabate, not athism vs religion.
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yawn1
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#162
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#162
(Original post by wiwarin_mir)
How exactly can god be admired when you disbelieve the 6 day creation? you say that through evolution we admire him, but surely it will do the opposite. If you believe the evolutionary stand point, the big bang theory can easily destroy and need of god, as it has been used frequently. Why would you need mystasism when you have admitted that the science is correct. If there was no 6 day creation, there was no original sin, therefore there has never been a time when the human race has been perfect and be able to liase directly with god. How then can humans be restored to the state of sinless perfection if that state never existed.
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You have completely missed the point!!

Although evolution can be accepted, it is as an adjunct to creation - i.e. God created everything that evolved right from the beginning. I do not necessarily adhere to the '6 day' time lapse you refer to - it could be 6 creations of God but time is irrelevant to God - he has, is and always will be. Talking of time span as days is because Man has no concept of eternity.

Are you now clear about the other clarifications I gave you as you have not referred to them?
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wiwarin_mir
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#163
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#163
(Original post by yawn1)
You have completely missed the point!!

Although evolution can be accepted, it is as an adjunct to creation - i.e. God created everything that evolved right from the beginning. I do not necessarily adhere to the '6 day' time lapse you refer to - it could be 6 creations of God but time is irrelevant to God - he has, is and always will be. Talking of time span as days is because Man has no concept of eternity.

Are you now clear about the other clarifications I gave you as you have not referred to them?
Who says i was referring to time lapse, I am talking about 6 literal days. Accepting evolution and simply saying that god created the big bang is foolish, you are using a weapon created to be used against any form of religion. If you use the same theory that athiest swear by, are you not simply trying the keep up with the times, to make the church look less 'archacic' to the world.
Surely you should not be trying to modernise the bible's message to try and convert more people, as it is as bad as many of those who were being subversive in the time of paul, who tried to introduce their own teachings and change the word.
At a very basic level, how many more parts of the bible can be discredited as myth due to the admission that evolution is correct. When will you start to discount one part of the the bible, and very few other places are more important than genesis, due to their mythical nature or the fact they seem fanciful.

Your other points, while I do not agree with them, I lack the knowledge to properly argue them.
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jpowell
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#164
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#164
The problem is that you are not discussing a purely theological matter. The bible asserts something that directly contradicts the way we know the world to work. The way I see it there are two options, except from recognising that Christianity is a complete myth, you alter your perception of the bible from being the 100% word of god, and accept that while it is not always true, you can gain an understanding of god from it, or you reject science and stick to your rapidly disintegrating worldview. It looks like you have chosen the latter.

I know many Christians who are perfectly happy with accepting that Evolution happened, they know that the bible is not the literal word of god, but they still have faith in God. Religion is not clearcut, and you seem to be quite arrogant in your view that your way is the right way, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.

I'm the enemy, not other Christians who believe in evolution!
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wiwarin_mir
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#165
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#165
(Original post by AntiMagicMan)
The problem is that you are not discussing a purely theological matter. The bible asserts something that directly contradicts the way we know the world to work. The way I see it there are two options, except from recognising that Christianity is a complete myth, you alter your perception of the bible from being the 100% word of god, and accept that while it is not always true, you can gain an understanding of god from it, or you reject science and stick to your rapidly disintegrating worldview. It looks like you have chosen the latter.

I know many Christians who are perfectly happy with accepting that Evolution happened, they know that the bible is not the literal word of god, but they still have faith in God. Religion is not clearcut, and you seem to be quite arrogant in your view that your way is the right way, and anyone who disagrees is wrong.

I'm the enemy, not other Christians who believe in evolution!
I am aware that some of the bible is symbolism, especially the book of revelation. I am not be arrogant, I am simply pointing out the massive flaws with trying to accept evolution and christianity.

The bible says we were made in the image of god, which obviously does not mean that god as the body of a man, rather humans have within them the virtues of god, including emotions, a mind that can understand and learn.
By saying that we evolved from lesser species, we are no different to any other animal on this planet, we are just more advanced. How then can we be seen as different from animals.

As I have said many times, evolution does not allow for original sin, which negates a lot of other things said in the bible. The original sin is the reason for both judeism (sp) and christianity, as both religions work by the principle of atonement for sins and, in the case of christianity, the only way to atone for the original sin, which you carry from before birth, is to trust in jesus.

The idea that god made the big bang and just started the ball rolling, knowing that humanity would end up being created may be used to show god's omnisenience, but it does not show his omnipotence, as an omnipotent god would not need to wait billions of years for his creations to take shape.

One thing I would like to know is where catholics stand on the flood and the longevity of life pre-flood, weather they think that too was a myth.
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jpowell
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#166
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#166
What if original sin is itself a metaphor, a metaphor for man's rejection of god and his teachings?
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wiwarin_mir
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#167
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#167
(Original post by AntiMagicMan)
What if original sin is itself a metaphor, a metaphor for man's rejection of god and his teachings?
Sin is the rejection of god's word and the act of doing anything that is ungodly. No matter how much anyone tries, they sin and it is through jesus they can atone. No one can come to the father but from the son.
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jpowell
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#168
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#168
Yes, so instead of quoting rhetoric, actually read what I said.

Sin is a rejection of God's teaching. If everyone is automatically sinning then that is pretty much Original sin. There is no need for the Garden of Eden story if man is already automatically sinning. It is a metaphor that explains why man is sinning, but not the reason.

I do not see why you need to dismiss evolution if you want to be a christian.
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wiwarin_mir
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#169
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#169
(Original post by AntiMagicMan)
Yes, so instead of quoting rhetoric, actually read what I said.

Sin is a rejection of God's teaching. If everyone is automatically sinning then that is pretty much Original sin. There is no need for the Garden of Eden story if man is already automatically sinning. It is a metaphor that explains why man is sinning, but not the reason.

I do not see why you need to dismiss evolution if you want to be a christian.
But there was no sin in the beginning, that is my point, humans were originally made sinless. the original sin was committed in the garden of eden, so without the garden of eden there should be no sin.
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john !!
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#170
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#170
(Original post by wiwarin_mir)
But there was no sin in the beginning, that is my point, humans were originally made sinless. the original sin was committed in the garden of eden, so without the garden of eden there should be no sin.
Can't you see the garden of eden is a fairytale? It has all the charachteristics of one, a perfect place to appeal to us, a moral so that we can learn from it, good verses evil.

If people believe this to have happened literally, why don't they believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy?
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wiwarin_mir
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#171
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#171
(Original post by mik1a)
Can't you see the garden of eden is a fairytale? It has all the charachteristics of one, a perfect place to appeal to us, a moral so that we can learn from it, good verses evil.

If people believe this to have happened literally, why don't they believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy?
let me see, don't most fairy tales have a happily ever after ending, since when is being doomed to die and cast out of paradise a good ending. think before you comment.
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john !!
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#172
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#172
(Original post by wiwarin_mir)
let me see, don't most fairy tales have a happily ever after ending, since when is being doomed to die and cast out of paradise a good ending. think before you comment.
Okay, so it has a bad ending, the jury finds the fairy tale to be true.

Tell me again, how does one make a woman out of a man's rib. And why the feck did god put a tree there, and a snake. Kind of a risk if you ask me.
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wiwarin_mir
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#173
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#173
(Original post by mik1a)
Okay, so it has a bad ending, the jury finds the fairy tale to be true.

Tell me again, how does one make a woman out of a man's rib. And why the feck did god put a tree there, and a snake. Kind of a risk if you ask me.
Right now, god is omnipotent, if he can make the universe, he can make a female out of a rib.
The serpant, or satan if you will, was not put there by god, rather went to earth when he was thrown from heaven.
As for why the tree was put in the garden, no one but god knows, and try as anyone might, it is uncomprihendable to even the angels.
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zazy
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#174
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#174
(Original post by wiwarin_mir)
Before I start, can i just say that we do not need any athiests, anti-christian people or those other other religions commenting, as this is not an attack on christianity, just certain aspects of the catholic church.

How can the catholic church officially accept that evolution is in fact true when it completely undermines the entire religion. If creation is dismissed as a story that shows the character of god, rather than a factual account of the 6 day creation, it automatically opens up the rest of the bible to be called a story, thus destroying the religion.
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In fact evolution doesnt contradict the idea of 6 days of creation and in fact supports the view that everything has been planned carefully to be put into reality in an orderly sequence...how can that possibly contradict the named account?
Has anyone heard of succession?
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wiwarin_mir
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#175
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#175
(Original post by zazy)
In fact evolution doesnt contradict the idea of 6 days of creation and in fact supports the view that everything has been planned carefully to be put into reality in an orderly sequence...how can that possibly contradict the named account?
Has anyone heard of succession?
I have laid out several issues that, from a christian stand point, arise from accepting evolution, I do not wish to repeat myself so could you please read the rest of the thread first.
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Bigcnee
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#176
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#176
(Original post by mik1a)
Can't you see the garden of eden is a fairytale? It has all the charachteristics of one, a perfect place to appeal to us, a moral so that we can learn from it, good verses evil.

If people believe this to have happened literally, why don't they believe in Santa Claus or the tooth fairy?
Why have you got that ugly bimbo as your avatar?
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wiwarin_mir
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#177
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#177
(Original post by Bigcnee)
Why have you got that ugly bimbo as your avatar?
excellent, now all we have to do is wait for zizero, then we can get the debate going again.
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Pius
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#178
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#178
(Original post by wiwarin_mir)
How can the catholic church officially accept that evolution is in fact true when it completely undermines the entire religion. If creation is dismissed as a story that shows the character of god, rather than a factual account of the 6 day creation, it automatically opens up the rest of the bible to be called a story, thus destroying the religion.
Another point is that without creation, there is no need for jesus to actually have come to earth or died for people's sins as the orginal sin would not have been committed.
First, this isn't something unique the Church of Rome, it is accepted by many faiths. So quite why you choose to limit your attack to them I do not know.
Anyway, yes, the RCC does accept the possibility of evolution. But you are wrong to say this entirely undermines the religion or indeed undermines God.
There is nothing to say evolution is not a product of God. The emphasis you place on the Biblical passage would hold stronger if you were attacking an Anglican.
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Pius
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#179
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#179
(Original post by Mr Moncal)
Very good points. I was not aware that the catholic church believed that, but then again I'm not catholic. Parts of the bible are methaphorical and sarcastic, but that is not one of them.
Err no the Bible is not sarcastic, fool.
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Pius
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#180
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#180
(Original post by wiwarin_mir)
Oh come on, you have papal infalibility, so if the pope decides something should be changed or done, no one can argue.
incidently, to pope is another sore point. Where in the bible did it ever say that the pope should exist, as having a man, which many times in the past have done very ungodly things, should be able to dictate what goes on in the chuch.
You can't spell papal infallibility, and clearly have no understanding of it. The Pope does not 'decide something and no one can argue'. The Pope is infallible on matters ex cathedra. Infallibility is rarely invoked. Look it up...
As for your second point about a Pope, read where Jesus instructs that his ministry continue on earth, 'Peter, on this rock build my Church, what you build on earth will be bound on earth, what you lose on earth will be lost in heaven.' Peter becomes the Vicar of Christ on earth, aka Pope. The Catholic Church is Apostolic, founded by Christ. Hence it is the True Faith. Founded not by man, but by God.
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