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A choice between the Tories and Labour

In your opinion, would it be easier for a Macron-like figure to join the Tories and bring it to the centre (Cameron style) or join Labour and bring it to the centre (Blair)?

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Reply 1
Avatar for edd522
edd522
10
Original post by Democrat
In your opinion, would it be easier for a Macron-like figure to join the Tories and bring it to the centre (Cameron style) or join Labour and bring it to the centre (Blair)?


The Labour seems to be controlled by Momentum at the moment. An ex-banker like Macron wouldn't fit well with them.
Reply 2
Avatar for Rakas21
Rakas21
21
Original post by Democrat
In your opinion, would it be easier for a Macron-like figure to join the Tories and bring it to the centre (Cameron style) or join Labour and bring it to the centre (Blair)?


It's anecdotal but the perception in the UK is that the right are far more concerned with power/winning and being pragmatic when it comes to their beliefs vs the left who are more interested in ideological purity.

But this could simply be the result of Labour not having won an election in some time,
It's really difficult. I dislike a lot of the leftist anti-white anti-male rhetoric of labour and their hypocrisy, but the conservatives have gone insane - for instance trying to turn the country into a police state. We're on our way to a dictatorship people. Censoring the internet will be our downfall.

Thank god the millennials are so much less marxist then the current generation in power in the establishment.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by Democrat
In your opinion, would it be easier for a Macron-like figure to join the Tories and bring it to the centre (Cameron style) or join Labour and bring it to the centre (Blair)?


An insurgent hasn't really seized substantial power amongst the Tories since Joe Chamberlain. With Labour it has happened as recently as 1994.
Original post by Snagprophet


Thank god the millennials are so much less marxist then the current generation in power in the establishment.


There is that word Marxist again. What does it mean?
Neither currently. Don't know if youve seen this:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/11/two-cabinet-ministers-interested-in-new-anti-brexit-party-james-chapman

I think it should happen seeing as about a third of our parliamentary representatives would. BE better suited to that than their current parties.

But I don't think it would do so well, though a year ago I would have joined such a party in s heartbeat. Although I'm a lot more conservative now, I'd still have a lot of sympathy to such a party.
Reply 7
Avatar for Rakas21
Rakas21
21
Original post by Davij038
Neither currently. Don't know if youve seen this:
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/aug/11/two-cabinet-ministers-interested-in-new-anti-brexit-party-james-chapman

I think it should happen seeing as about a third of our parliamentary representatives would. BE better suited to that than their current parties.

But I don't think it would do so well, though a year ago I would have joined such a party in s heartbeat. Although I'm a lot more conservative now, I'd still have a lot of sympathy to such a party.


You have tended to float quite a lot in recent years albeit i'm glad your settling somewhere on the Tory spectrum.
Reply 8
Avatar for garold01
garold01
6
Original post by Snagprophet
It's really difficult. I dislike a lot of the leftist anti-white anti-male rhetoric of labour and their hypocrisy, but the conservatives have gone insane - for instance trying to turn the country into a police state. We're on our way to a dictatorship people. Censoring the internet will be our downfall.

Thank god the millennials are so much less marxist then the current generation in power in the establishment.


i'm with you (as someone whose grandmother was a founder of the ILP). Its ironic that the anti-white anti-male so called labour party is full of white male leaders and politicians. Its a pussy pass to the real controllers such as Harman. They are about as 'marxist' (in the original definition) as my cat is to a wolf.
Original post by ByEeek
There is that word Marxist again. What does it mean?


I'd assume in this context:

Relativistic ethical approach that believes in using egalitarian policies to construct a 'utopian' society via social liberalism. Also determinism as opposed to free will. Difficult to pin down as leaders from Merkel to Corbyn embrace some or all of its ideals. Trudeau would probably be the Best example though.

Rather than old school communism (dictatorship of the proletariat, seizing the means of production etc) its more focused on social rather than economic policy.
Original post by Rakas21
You have tended to float quite a lot in recent years albeit i'm glad your settling somewhere on the Tory spectrum.


Haven't floated, have been prettty consistent until quite recently...

Started off at 16 as a commie then as an anarchist, then Social Democrat, Then Classical/ Neo Liberal last summer before 'discovering' Christianity after I realised where unfettered rationalism would take society and became a Traditional Tory.
Original post by Davij038
Haven't floated, have been prettty consistent until quite recently...

Started off at 16 as a commie then as an anarchist, then Social Democrat, Then Classical/ Neo Liberal last summer before 'discovering' Christianity after I realised where unfettered rationalism would take society and became a Traditional Tory.


I thought you were supporting Corbyn to disrupt politics or something about a year ago.

Are you one Nation or true blue ect..

I myself started off true blue, became more classically liberal but have over the past 1-2 years become more of a One Nation type.
Original post by Davij038


Relativistic ethical approach that believes in using egalitarian policies to construct a 'utopian' society via social liberalism. Also determinism as opposed to free will. Difficult to pin down as leaders from Merkel to Corbyn embrace some or all of its ideals. Trudeau would probably be the Best example though.


That all sounds rather reasonable. So why is it fired as an insult?
Original post by ByEeek
That all sounds rather reasonable. So why is it fired as an insult?


In the context that people mention it is primarily used as a means to describe a segment of social democrat politics. People who are described as social justice warriors and are intolerant of differing opinion, which a narrow idealistic belief in things like positive discrimination.

It's an insult because the modern social social justice movement (cultural marxism as some call it) is seen as attack in the straight white male's position in society.

As the poster above mentions you have people like May and Merkel who pander on bits of it and others like Treudo and Corbyn who are avidly part of it.
Original post by Rakas21

It's an insult because the modern social social justice movement (cultural marxism as some call it) is seen as attack in the straight white male's position in society.


Ahhh - so white people don't like it when the tables are turned? Now they know how the other lot feel. Interesting that they screech like babies the minute they feel discriminated against whilst were happy to turn a blind eye or even contribute to discrimination against everyone else.

So basically, people who levy a Marxist insult are likely to be purveyors of discrimination one way or another? I have to say that up until the age of 40, I have never come across people who used Marxism as an insult.
Original post by ByEeek
Ahhh - so white people don't like it when the tables are turned? Now they know how the other lot feel. Interesting that they screech like babies the minute they feel discriminated against whilst were happy to turn a blind eye or even contribute to discrimination against everyone else.

So basically, people who levy a Marxist insult are likely to be purveyors of discrimination one way or another? I have to say that up until the age of 40, I have never come across people who used Marxism as an insult.


It's an internet/alt right thing mostly.

But no, i think saying they actively supported discrimination is wrong.
Original post by ByEeek
That all sounds rather reasonable. So why is it fired as an insult?


Because some like myself believe it would lead to a societal collapse and destroy countless lives and would lead to anarchy or totalitarian control as people do not take responsibility for their actions, engage in whatever vices they deem fit (and expect the state to foot the bill) and as there is no universal moral principle it doesn't matter anyway- (and as it's adherents are usually better off it probably won't matter to them anyway)

This can be observed by the rise of suicides, drug abuse, radicalisation, celeb 'culture' , divorces and the huge racking up of debt as just a fraction of the scale of the problem.
Original post by Davij038
I'd assume in this context:

Relativistic ethical approach that believes in using egalitarian policies to construct a 'utopian' society via social liberalism. Also determinism as opposed to free will. Difficult to pin down as leaders from Merkel to Corbyn embrace some or all of its ideals. Trudeau would probably be the Best example though.

Rather than old school communism (dictatorship of the proletariat, seizing the means of production etc) its more focused on social rather than economic policy.


Surely it is a universalist ethical approach. It's all based around the idea of human rights.
Original post by Democrat
In your opinion, would it be easier for a Macron-like figure to join the Tories and bring it to the centre (Cameron style) or join Labour and bring it to the centre (Blair)?


According to Paul Mason a centre party would occupy a more right wing ground and would actually split the anti left vote in contrast to the common narrative based on the SDP splitting the anti Tory vote in the 80s.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/11/new-centrist-party-split-tories-not-labour-neoliberals-free-market-economics
Original post by Rakas21
I thought you were supporting Corbyn to disrupt politics or something about a year ago.


Christ no lol



I myself started off true blue, became more classically liberal but have over the past 1-2 years become more of a One Nation type.


I think probably the complete oppppsite lol

Im a fiscal and cultural conservative, but in other areas I think I'm quite pragmatic and open minded: I really like the idea of a universal Income for one thing and think we'd probably be better off nationalising our prisons as just some things which set me apart.

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