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Is socialism too old fashioned?
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Arran90
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#1
Factoring out populist issues like abolishing tuition fees or anything to do with the NHS then is socialism too old fashioned for the iPad generation? Try not to look at this question as a polarised argument between socialism and hardline free market capitalism and think more in terms of what people want from a government rather than the ideology, or the name of the ideology, which the government follows.
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Llamageddon
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There are aspects that are relevant. I think automation makes the socialization of profits essential. But mostly it has failed to adapt to the economic and social changes of the last 30-40 years
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Arran90
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#3
Socialism is basically a western ideology from the 19th and early 20th century designed for a society, economy, and the technology that existed at that time.
Although it's a bit simplistic, socialism can be split into two 'wings' of economic socialism and social socialism. The people who show interest in, or personally benefit from, one of these wings do not necessarily support the other.
Although it's a bit simplistic, socialism can be split into two 'wings' of economic socialism and social socialism. The people who show interest in, or personally benefit from, one of these wings do not necessarily support the other.
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anarchism101
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Arran90
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#5
(Original post by Llamageddon)
There are aspects that are relevant. I think automation makes the socialization of profits essential. But mostly it has failed to adapt to the economic and social changes of the last 30-40 years
There are aspects that are relevant. I think automation makes the socialization of profits essential. But mostly it has failed to adapt to the economic and social changes of the last 30-40 years
The left may call themselves radicals but they are a group which is wary, and quite conservative, when it comes to new technology whereas the 'conservative' right embraces new technology with open arms.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-have-a-future
Economists and sociologists talk about “the precariat”, a growing part of the population for whom work is not the basis of personal identity, but an on-off part of life from which they often need protection. Some of this, of course, is down to the venality and greed of businesses. But the central momentum behind it is rooted in technology, and what Marxists would call the “mode of production”.
If the left’s predicament comes down to a single fault, it is this. It is very good at demanding change, but pretty hopeless at understanding it. Supposedly radical elements too often regard deep technological shifts as the work of greedy capitalists and rightwing politicians, and demand that they are rolled back. Meanwhile, the self-styled moderates tend to advocate large-scale surrender, instead of recognising that technological and economic changes can create new openings for left ideas. A growing estrangement from the left’s traditional supporters makes these problems worse, and one side tends to cancel out the other. The result: as people experience dramatic change in their everyday lives, they form the impression that half of politics has precious little to say to them.
On a different subject, something that hasn't been given sufficient attention to was that the Miner's Strike back in the 1980s had a distinctively British flavour to it. The coal miners were almost exclusively white British people living and working in almost exclusively white British areas who were trying to defend their livelihood and their families. Most were socially conservative folk who had no interest in issues like feminism, gay rights, multiculturalism, and neither did they want ethnics or foreign immigrants moving into their neighbourhoods. Arthur Scargill might have been their hero but only a tiny number of miners were members or supporters of the Trotskyist groups like the SWP.
In the mid 1980s a visible rift formed between the far left in provincial urban and industrial areas which was dominated by white British blue collar workers (who were interested in traditional economic issues like jobs, worker's rights, the collapse of heavy industry, and trade unions), and the far left in London and other trendy cities dominated by Marxists and Trotskyists who were financially comfortable in non-manual jobs (who were interested in issues like feminism, gay rights, multiculturalism, race relations, and immigration). The provincial economic left declined along with the heavy industry although fragments lived on after 2000 in both the BNP and UKIP. The Marxists and the Trotskyists dominate far left movements outside of Labour although public support for them is negligible as they are minority cult movements.
It's interesting to note how the miners in the mid 1980s fought for Coal not Dole for themselves and their sons and grandsons. The question now is whether the kids of the iPad generation – no matter how bleak their economic future is – even want to spend their working lives down a coal mine?
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paul514
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#6
I don't really believe in ideologies just common sense.
So free health care, free education with far fewer people going and houses that people can afford to buy seem like common sense to me
So free health care, free education with far fewer people going and houses that people can afford to buy seem like common sense to me
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Rakas21
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#7
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#7
(Original post by Arran90)
Factoring out populist issues like abolishing tuition fees or anything to do with the NHS then is socialism too old fashioned for the iPad generation? Try not to look at this question as a polarised argument between socialism and hardline free market capitalism and think more in terms of what people want from a government rather than the ideology, or the name of the ideology, which the government follows.
Factoring out populist issues like abolishing tuition fees or anything to do with the NHS then is socialism too old fashioned for the iPad generation? Try not to look at this question as a polarised argument between socialism and hardline free market capitalism and think more in terms of what people want from a government rather than the ideology, or the name of the ideology, which the government follows.
Modern socialists are actually mostly social democrats who co-opted the movement after the Soviet Union fell and was disowned. People like Corbyn and McDonnel now argue less for outright control but for co-operative ownership (the more extreme folk advocating that this be forced on all firms), greater union rights and 'equality and fairness'. Where they are similar to the old left is that they still retain a believe in high taxes and spending and some do see communism (i.e no money or universal distribution) as still being a credible goal.
Globally, i don't think we have too much to fear however we have some mistakes domestically on the right that threaten to bite us.
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mojojojo101
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#8
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#8
(Original post by Arran90)
There is very good article in the Guardian titled Does the left have a future? It makes references to the impacts of technology on society and how the socialists have struggled to adapt in the face of it.
The left may call themselves radicals but they are a group which is wary, and quite conservative, when it comes to new technology whereas the 'conservative' right embraces new technology with open arms.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-have-a-future
Economists and sociologists talk about “the precariat”, a growing part of the population for whom work is not the basis of personal identity, but an on-off part of life from which they often need protection. Some of this, of course, is down to the venality and greed of businesses. But the central momentum behind it is rooted in technology, and what Marxists would call the “mode of production”.
If the left’s predicament comes down to a single fault, it is this. It is very good at demanding change, but pretty hopeless at understanding it. Supposedly radical elements too often regard deep technological shifts as the work of greedy capitalists and rightwing politicians, and demand that they are rolled back. Meanwhile, the self-styled moderates tend to advocate large-scale surrender, instead of recognising that technological and economic changes can create new openings for left ideas. A growing estrangement from the left’s traditional supporters makes these problems worse, and one side tends to cancel out the other. The result: as people experience dramatic change in their everyday lives, they form the impression that half of politics has precious little to say to them.
On a different subject, something that hasn't been given sufficient attention to was that the Miner's Strike back in the 1980s had a distinctively British flavour to it. The coal miners were almost exclusively white British people living and working in almost exclusively white British areas who were trying to defend their livelihood and their families. Most were socially conservative folk who had no interest in issues like feminism, gay rights, multiculturalism, and neither did they want ethnics or foreign immigrants moving into their neighbourhoods. Arthur Scargill might have been their hero but only a tiny number of miners were members or supporters of the Trotskyist groups like the SWP.
In the mid 1980s a visible rift formed between the far left in provincial urban and industrial areas which was dominated by white British blue collar workers (who were interested in traditional economic issues like jobs, worker's rights, the collapse of heavy industry, and trade unions), and the far left in London and other trendy cities dominated by Marxists and Trotskyists who were financially comfortable in non-manual jobs (who were interested in issues like feminism, gay rights, multiculturalism, race relations, and immigration). The provincial economic left declined along with the heavy industry although fragments lived on after 2000 in both the BNP and UKIP. The Marxists and the Trotskyists dominate far left movements outside of Labour although public support for them is negligible as they are minority cult movements.
It's interesting to note how the miners in the mid 1980s fought for Coal not Dole for themselves and their sons and grandsons. The question now is whether the kids of the iPad generation – no matter how bleak their economic future is – even want to spend their working lives down a coal mine?
There is very good article in the Guardian titled Does the left have a future? It makes references to the impacts of technology on society and how the socialists have struggled to adapt in the face of it.
The left may call themselves radicals but they are a group which is wary, and quite conservative, when it comes to new technology whereas the 'conservative' right embraces new technology with open arms.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics...-have-a-future
Economists and sociologists talk about “the precariat”, a growing part of the population for whom work is not the basis of personal identity, but an on-off part of life from which they often need protection. Some of this, of course, is down to the venality and greed of businesses. But the central momentum behind it is rooted in technology, and what Marxists would call the “mode of production”.
If the left’s predicament comes down to a single fault, it is this. It is very good at demanding change, but pretty hopeless at understanding it. Supposedly radical elements too often regard deep technological shifts as the work of greedy capitalists and rightwing politicians, and demand that they are rolled back. Meanwhile, the self-styled moderates tend to advocate large-scale surrender, instead of recognising that technological and economic changes can create new openings for left ideas. A growing estrangement from the left’s traditional supporters makes these problems worse, and one side tends to cancel out the other. The result: as people experience dramatic change in their everyday lives, they form the impression that half of politics has precious little to say to them.
On a different subject, something that hasn't been given sufficient attention to was that the Miner's Strike back in the 1980s had a distinctively British flavour to it. The coal miners were almost exclusively white British people living and working in almost exclusively white British areas who were trying to defend their livelihood and their families. Most were socially conservative folk who had no interest in issues like feminism, gay rights, multiculturalism, and neither did they want ethnics or foreign immigrants moving into their neighbourhoods. Arthur Scargill might have been their hero but only a tiny number of miners were members or supporters of the Trotskyist groups like the SWP.
In the mid 1980s a visible rift formed between the far left in provincial urban and industrial areas which was dominated by white British blue collar workers (who were interested in traditional economic issues like jobs, worker's rights, the collapse of heavy industry, and trade unions), and the far left in London and other trendy cities dominated by Marxists and Trotskyists who were financially comfortable in non-manual jobs (who were interested in issues like feminism, gay rights, multiculturalism, race relations, and immigration). The provincial economic left declined along with the heavy industry although fragments lived on after 2000 in both the BNP and UKIP. The Marxists and the Trotskyists dominate far left movements outside of Labour although public support for them is negligible as they are minority cult movements.
It's interesting to note how the miners in the mid 1980s fought for Coal not Dole for themselves and their sons and grandsons. The question now is whether the kids of the iPad generation – no matter how bleak their economic future is – even want to spend their working lives down a coal mine?
This meant that when the likes of B. Clinton and Blair turned up they were able to co opt the social-justice liberalism of this part of the left and then tack it on to the neo-liberal economic plan which, to be fair has shown itself to be very good a rebranding and adopting opposing positions as it's own. This meant the socialist left was left with no economic argument and now no social argument.
Since then the left as a whole has resolutely failed to come up with strong narratives about the downsides of capitalism and the inherent exploitation of the working class therein, even when given the 2008 financial crisis and the following decade of mixed financial performances the left has failed to come up with even a strong anti-capitalist message (this is getting better) and what has been proposed as better as basically been nothing more than 'the same but a bit less capitalisty'.
This is why, as a 'far left' person I am not a fan of Corbyn and why I resent hearing either him or his ideas described as revolutionary or even progressive, because they aren't. In fa t I think Corbyn, in his hardening back with rose tinted glasses to the age of big beauracratic government and state owned industry represents a failure, nor a success of the left.
If the left is going to build a new image then it needs to abandon the reliance on big government and state-capitalism (which really is what Corbyn is proposing). A new narrative needs to be built around getting power back into the hands of people directly, not just in a political sense but also at work, at home and in our communities.
Luckily enough we already have the ideological basis for this Libertarian-Socialis aka Anarchism.
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Arran90
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#9
Has mass immigration scuppered socialism? The socialist ideologies formulated in the 19th and early 20th centuries were formulated in western European nations with far more homogeneous populations than Britain, and some other western European countries, in more recent decades. History has shown that immigrants and their descendants from outside of Europe overwhelmingly stick to their own identities and religions, as well as clustering together in communities, than assimilating into the indigenous population. Although large numbers of immigrants of non-European origin and their British born descendants support Labour only a tiny handful have ventured into Communist or Marxist political movements. One possible explanation for the almost complete lack of interest in Communism and Marxism amongst blacks and Asians in Britain is because the majority of such people are religious in one way or another whereas the followers of Marx are overwhelmingly atheists.
Despite the near total lack of interest in Communism and Marxism by blacks and Asians, far left political movements in Britain today all advocate an open door immigration policy and hold the stance that any white British person to the right of Dennis Skinner is a racist whilst blacks and Asians can never be racist. Therefore socialism has moved from being the saviour of working class white British folk in the early 20th century to the enemy of working class white British folk in the early 21st century.
It's notable that European countries where left and socialist movements have become the main anti-establishment force since 2008, such as Greece, have almost homogeneous populations and very few non-European immigrants.
Despite the near total lack of interest in Communism and Marxism by blacks and Asians, far left political movements in Britain today all advocate an open door immigration policy and hold the stance that any white British person to the right of Dennis Skinner is a racist whilst blacks and Asians can never be racist. Therefore socialism has moved from being the saviour of working class white British folk in the early 20th century to the enemy of working class white British folk in the early 21st century.
It's notable that European countries where left and socialist movements have become the main anti-establishment force since 2008, such as Greece, have almost homogeneous populations and very few non-European immigrants.
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