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The notion of a 2nd EU referendum is stupid, discuss.

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If Remain had won, the likes of UKIP, Nigel Farage and the Eurosceptics would still be campaigning to leave.

They would argue that the sovereignty of our country and saving us from becoming absorbed in a federalist European superstate was more important to fight for than arguments about it being "once in a lifetime". They would wait for any moment where the Euro project seemed to be losing popularity and then campaign with all their might to get another referendum. Just like the Scottish Nationalists are doing in Scotland.

Now I think if you wanted to call the SNP's bluff, you could announce a referendum again now. I bet they would be caught off guard, because they would struggle to win and it might be an even stronger win for Better Together. That would really take the wind out of the SNP's sails.

You could also do this for the EU referendum too, IF you are sure that the will of the people is to Leave and hasn't changed. It would be a certain mandate if you negotiated a deal, put that deal to the people and got the answer "yes thanks, still want to leave".

The reason Brexiters are opposed to the idea of a second referendum is because they fear that the public support for leaving is slipping away and a second referendum would be for remaining in the EU.
Reply 21
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Original post by shawn_o1
There's an obvious one, the freedom of movement "law" stopping us from kicking out criminals from Europe who commit crimes on our shores. And attracted quite a lot of beggars from the continent too (y'know, those who queue up for our welfare system). Even kicking out non-EU criminals is tough because their lawyers will simply quote from the ECHR.
Also, don't you think the vote has also been a wake-up call to this government for allowing 40 years of rot while the EU just bailed us out with "funds". A government that cared not a single iota for their people once they allowed the floodgates in. Why else would they dumb down our education system to this level?

Ahhh, so it comes back to immigration again. The example is so petty and minuscule; criminals using the immigration system. Im sure there have been cases where criminals have come to england without the work permit but we have criminals born in england as well! its not a good enough reason to leave the EU, plus even if freedom of movement was something that had to be stopped eventually, although it hasn't been done I'm sure you could negotiate it and change the rules on britains term, especially with whats at stake.
Reply 22
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Original post by shawn_o1
There's an obvious one, the freedom of movement "law" stopping us from kicking out criminals from Europe who commit crimes on our shores. And attracted quite a lot of beggars from the continent too (y'know, those who queue up for our welfare system). Even kicking out non-EU criminals is tough because their lawyers will simply quote from the ECHR.
Also, don't you think the vote has also been a wake-up call to this government for allowing 40 years of rot while the EU just bailed us out with "funds". A government that cared not a single iota for their people once they allowed the floodgates in. Why else would they dumb down our education system to this level?

And how ignorant can you get, immigrants from europe benefiting from our welfare system , its a known fact that even Farage would concede to that immigrants can't claim benefits for up to 5 years.
Original post by Ollie123x
Ahhh, so it comes back to immigration again. The example is so petty and minuscule; criminals using the immigration system. Im sure there have been cases where criminals have come to england without the work permit but we have criminals born in england as well! its not a good enough reason to leave the EU, plus even if freedom of movement was something that had to be stopped eventually, although it hasn't been done I'm sure you could negotiate it and change the rules on britains term, especially with whats at stake.


David Cameron has already tried and failed. The EU stubbornly insist freedom of movement will not be compromised. And that's what they insist even when their own borders are so porous.
By the way, trade deals should not be a problem, especially as other sovereign nations would be negotiating with one country instead of 27. Also, the EU now cannot be so arrogant with their food standards now that they let the Dutch egg scandal slip :wink:
Original post by shawn_o1
Referendums are once-in-a-generation things. To ask the populace the same question again, so soon after the first (and before the outcome of the referendum is known) would only make them shrug and answer with what they voted for in the first place.


Which would result in remain winning actually - leave voters were much older on average and many will have died by the time we leave the EU!
Original post by Ollie123x
Bet you have no valid reason for wanting to leave.


I wonder if it's even worth telling you why I voted Leave, you've already made your mind up that I'm an uneducated fool.
Reply 26
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Original post by shawn_o1
David Cameron has already tried and failed. The EU stubbornly insist freedom of movement will not be compromised. And that's what they insist even when their own borders are so porous.
By the way, trade deals should not be a problem, especially as other sovereign nations would be negotiating with one country instead of 27. Also, the EU now cannot be so arrogant with their food standards now that they let the Dutch egg scandal slip :wink:

The debate on freedom of movement is a big one, and whether it needs to stop or not surely that shouldn't be a decider in wanting to leave.
Being in the EU constitutes as one country in terms of trade as its one whole trading bloc, leaving and creating new trade deals from scratch would put us in a lot of uncertainty.
Reply 27
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Original post by shawn_o1
David Cameron has already tried and failed. The EU stubbornly insist freedom of movement will not be compromised. And that's what they insist even when their own borders are so porous.
By the way, trade deals should not be a problem, especially as other sovereign nations would be negotiating with one country instead of 27. Also, the EU now cannot be so arrogant with their food standards now that they let the Dutch egg scandal slip :wink:

I also don't understand why you're so against freedom of movement. That criminal reason doesn't seem to outweigh the benefits because it is very minuscule the number of criminals entering the UK from the EU, especially given the majority number of criminals born over here.
No because we will be stooping down to the EU's level by demanding another result when we dont like the result (look at 2nd ref on Constitution in ireland). The EU has rejected the results in France and Netherlands on Constitution after people voted no

Also, if this were the other way around, and us brexiteers didnt win and demanded a second referendum, the remainers will proudly tell us to stop complaining and deal with the result.
The only reason there is talk of a 2nd referendum is because the establishment didnt like the result
Original post by Ollie123x
I also don't understand why you're so against freedom of movement. That criminal reason doesn't seem to outweigh the benefits because it is very minuscule the number of criminals entering the UK from the EU, especially given the majority number of criminals born over here.


As a left winger, i am opposed to the freedom of movement. Not in theory but how it being practised at the moment. The problem is that it can only be free movement if countries have similar living standards (e.g uk, france, germany), then it will be true free movement. But what has happened is, that tony blair opened up the floodgates to the eastern european countries and this had led to mass migration to the richer countries.
This was intended by Margaret Thatcher, who signed the Single European Act in 1986 as to provide a source of cheap labour for the big companies, which it is. This has driven down workers wages and conditions, with the EU not batting an eyelid, even though many supposed left winger say that the EU champions workers rights

George Galloway rightly called free movement the 'capitalist's wet dream' and he is right
Only democracy if it goes your way eh?

But I think the main nitpicking as to a second referendum would be the slightly lower than usual voting turnout, I guess I'd understand why people would want to re-do it, but I think, as previously mentioned, unless circumstances substantially change or public opinion MAJORLY sways, a second referendum shouldn't be called for. I'm neither a Brexiteer nor a Remainer, frankly, Brexit has no impact from my perspective, but I merely follow with the will of the people. I'm not going to claim that the voter turnout for a certain side is less intelligent because I respect the opinions of the people.
Reply 31
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Original post by asim1999
As a left winger, i am opposed to the freedom of movement. Not in theory but how it being practised at the moment. The problem is that it can only be free movement if countries have similar living standards (e.g uk, france, germany), then it will be true free movement. But what has happened is, that tony blair opened up the floodgates to the eastern european countries and this had led to mass migration to the richer countries.
This was intended by Margaret Thatcher, who signed the Single European Act in 1986 as to provide a source of cheap labour for the big companies, which it is. This has driven down workers wages and conditions, with the EU not batting an eyelid, even though many supposed left winger say that the EU champions workers rights

George Galloway rightly called free movement the 'capitalist's wet dream' and he is right

Can you provide evidence that it drives down wages? Because I hear it all the time, yet most people haven't experienced being in a real low skilled job and had their wages reduced by the presence of an eastern european worker...
The vast majority of people want a full Brexit, a second referendum is absolutely useless and just reeks of desperation, it's getting embarrassing now.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/
Original post by Ollie123x
Can you provide evidence that it drives down wages? Because I hear it all the time, yet most people haven't experienced being in a real low skilled job and had their wages reduced by the presence of an eastern european worker...


It's quite simple supply and demand, more workers that are happy with less pay will drive down wages for the entire group.
Original post by Durhamgirl96
We voted, we got our result. As far as I'm concerned, it should be left at that. We got what we voted for.


I agree
The people have spoken.

We will leave the Eu and kick out migrants. Only then will Britain thrive.
Original post by Ollie123x
What are people's point of views?


Even tho i and others diagree with brexit doesnt mean we should have another referendum we have already voted and spoken it is time to pay for the consequences of the actions of the public
Reply 37
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Original post by 22RobertsJ
It's quite simple supply and demand, more workers that are happy with less pay will drive down wages for the entire group.


Of course theoretically it makes sense, but surely that assumes that this is private sector work, ask wages won't drastically change in the public sector due to this influx, and it also assumes that no indigenous people work there as they would be dissatisfied with the wages , I'm sure it happens in some industry i am just not quite convinced of the scale in many industries, have you experienced a boss reducing your wages due to many other migrants willing to work for less?
Original post by 22RobertsJ
The vast majority of people want a full Brexit, a second referendum is absolutely useless and just reeks of desperation, it's getting embarrassing now.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/11/remain-voters-now-back-taking-control-borders-leaving-ecj-paying/


Is this the same vast majority that backs Remain

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-remain-win-new-eu-exit-vote-survation-poll-a7820286.html

or perhaps it is the vast majority that backs a soft Brexit

http://survation.com/latest-polls-indicate-majority-support-soft-brexit/

The reality is if you ask a loaded question, you get the answer you were seeking.
Original post by Ollie123x
I think people should accept the result, its democracy. Misinformation was broadcasted on both sides and always is in general election


That isn't really true is it (at least not before 2017).

Point me to any specific influential lies such as Leave's £350M or Remain's Emergency Budget.

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