Harvard Referencing in the Bibliography and main text. + Appendixes

13

In the Bibliography, are all the different resources used, i.e. books, magazines, journals, periodicals, websites etc, all placed together in alphabetical order or are they separated up by sub-headings, so all the books in alphabetical order then under a heading of "journals" all the journals listed in alphabetical order etc?

Also, what does "pp" stand for/denote? Is it like this:

pg = a singular page but when referring to a range of pages do I write "pp" or "pgs"?

Because one of the Ph.D students confused me further by saying that "pp" denotes how many pages there are in a book altogether. But this doesn't make sense when I see something like "pp546-578" for example, unless the pages after 546 are referring to the Indexes and References etc, or the book starts on page number 546. :confused:

But then surely also you wouldn't have to reference all the pages from a book- just a fraction of them (though this does of course depend on how long the book in question is :p:

, although most of the ones I am going through atm, you could knock someone out with!).

When you write ranges of pages do you write either:

pp546-578 or pp546 - 578 or pp 546 - 578 or pgs instead of pp? In summary, how does the spacing go? (Picky I know but so is this referencing system, I find! :p:

).

When you write the abbreviation for page(s) and then the numbers for a book or the numbers etc for a volume in a journal etc, do these and the referencing embodied within the essay/piece of writing, get counted in the word limit?

To extend the above, does what is written in the Bibliography get counted as part of the word count also?

Would anything written in an Appendix be included in the word limit also? In fact, if I am doing essays in the region of 1000 to 1500 words long (word limit) then should I be using an Appendix/is it appropriate for me to include an Appendix at the end? Like if there was any information that I had gleamt of which I could say I make it relevant to the essay question as that being one of the ways in which I have interpreted the essay question as to being, and have stated that this is so in order to reinforce/point out ant relevancy- if I had this little bit of information but even me: myself feels as though it really is too tenacious and implicit a link to hold any relevancy or appropriateness to the essay question at all, may I do well/better to create an Appendix so as to write that there? Because it shouldn't really eat up the word limit either. Because then it shows some organisation and further appreciation perhaps that wouldn't be known if I was to just miss it out completely?

Reply 1

Celifein

7

Bibliography:
Typically they are all bunched together in one list, in alphabetical order.

Pages:
I never use "pp", mostly because I find it inexplicably annoying. I use "p", as in p285 or p285-289.

Word Count:
Anything in the bulk of the text is counted, including references to other text.
I don't count the words in the bibliography.

Appendices:
If it isn't directly relevant to the essay, it shouldn't be included; you shouldn't try and "sneak it in" by putting it in an appendix. If you've learned more than you needed to, good for you, but you don't need to try and dazzle your tutor with it.
I use appendices for things like tables relating to results which I've refered to in my essay, but don't strictly need to be in the essay itself.
I don't count the words in the appendices either.

Reply 2

Tom

15

For a short, 1000 word essay, "Bilbiography" isn't likely to be appropriate anyway, because you're only going to be mentioning a few specific references you've used directly in the essay, rather than a huge list of all the material you've ever read that was relevant. Or at least that's what our supervisors have told us - they say "Reference List" is more appropriate instead.

For a short undergrad essay, including appendixes is not appropriate unless you have something like some tables of information or diagrams or something. Part of the challenge of the assigment is to fit a decent essay into the given word count (practise also for exams, where time [which] is limited) and you are not going to please the person marking the essay by shoehorning extraneous content into an appendix.

Reply 3

HJV

16

The Harvard system is silly. I don't know why so many unis use it.

The inline citations interrupt the text, and make it annoying to read. And punish you for using lots of sources by decreasing the amount of words available.

Reply 4

Elements

OP

13

HJV

The Harvard system is silly. I don't know why so many unis use it.

The inline citations interrupt the text, and make it annoying to read. And punish you for using lots of sources by decreasing the amount of words available.

So do the words of the sources of the references embedded within the text, DEFINITELY add towards the word count- they are not exempt from the word count? Because I'm already finding the word limit very trying! :huff:

Reply 5

hobnob

14

Elements

So do the words of the sources of the references embedded within the text, DEFINITELY add towards the word count- they are not exempt from the word count? Because I'm already finding the word limit very trying! :huff:

All references and footnotes add to the word count. Only bibliographies are excluded.

Reply 6

HJV

16

Footnotes generally aren't included in the word count...

Reply 7

hobnob

14

HJV

Footnotes generally aren't included in the word count...

What do you base that observation on, if I may ask? :confused:

Every course handbook I've ever come across included a variation on the phrase "X words, including quotations and footnotes".

Reply 8

HJV

16

hobnob

What do you base that observation on, if I may ask? :confused:

Every course handbook I've ever come across included a variation on the phrase "X words, including quotations and footnotes".

On the fact that up to date, I have never had them counted in any assessment I have handed in. I even asked my tutor at uni, and she said that footnotes are not counted. Is this not good enough?

Reply 9

hobnob

14

HJV

On the fact that up to date, I have never had them counted in any assessment I have handed in. I even asked my tutor at uni, and she said that footnotes are not counted. Is this not good enough?

No, I'm afraid what ultimately counts is what the course handbook says. If yours says footnotes aren't included in the wordcount, good for you, but the majority of course handbooks specifically state they are included.

Reply 10

HJV

16

hobnob

No, I'm afraid what ultimately counts is what the course handbook says. If yours says footnotes aren't included in the wordcount, good for you, but the majority of course handbooks specifically state they are included.

Reference, please? :smile:

Reply 11

Catsmeat

13

HJV

The Harvard system is silly. I don't know why so many unis use it.

The inline citations interrupt the text, and make it annoying to read. And punish you for using lots of sources by decreasing the amount of words available.

If you're making reference to the same text more than once (as I have reason to do so when writing science-based essays or writing an appraisal of a specific ethnography) the use of ,ibid. can cut down on additional 'bulk' at the bottom of a text, though I only have one course where I am required to make use of the Harvard scheme in totality (as practice more than from professional preference).

Reply 12

Tom

15

For my essays, the inline references only need to be "blah blah blah (Auhor, 1995)" or "blah blah as Author (1995) says", or with a page reference if it's a direct quote as well. That's only adding two words per reference...not going to make a huge difference to the word count is it? Maybe 20 words at most I would guess.

Reply 13

hobnob

14

HJV

Reference, please? :smile:

Why don't you just check out the websites of a couple of random universities, have a look at a few random course handbooks and see what you find?

Again, I'm not disputing that some departments (like yours, apparently) allow you to leave them out of your word count, but this isn't the norm, so you can't assume that's the way every department handles it. Footnotes and in-text references are part of the text, after all.

Reply 14

suicidal_dream

1

all references within the text count towards the word count.

footnotes generally don't count within the word limit. (or at least for my course, this is true).

Also for page numbering, within the text according to my course, we write
'surname, date :tongue:

age number-page number) no 'pg' or 'pgs' - check your course handbook - it should make it clear.

Reply 15

Tom

15

p. 103 or
pp. 103-105 is the norm here...

Reply 16

HJV

16

Tom

For my essays, the inline references only need to be "blah blah blah (Auhor, 1995)" or "blah blah as Author (1995) says", or with a page reference if it's a direct quote as well. That's only adding two words per reference...not going to make a huge difference to the word count is it? Maybe 20 words at most I would guess.

Eg. (Dunleavy and O'Leary, 1987, p.40) - 5 words. Something like that 30 times in an essay totals to 150 words...

hobnob

Why don't you just check out the websites of a couple of random universities, have a look at a few random course handbooks and see what you find?

Could you please find me 5 "good" universities that say footnotes are included in the wordcount in their essays?

If I can't assume the way our department does it is the norm, neither can you assume your department's way is.

As you might see below, it's not just my department... :rolleyes:

Higher Education Authority of Ireland

Footnotes are not included in the word count

Southampton Solent University

References within the footnotes and the bibliography are not included in the word count.

King's College London

Word limits should apply [...] not to references or bibliography

University of Essex

The word count specified for undergraduate assessments usually excludes the footnotes and bibliography

University of Cambridge

The word count excludes:
a. Footnotes

London South Bank University

Footnotes will not count towards word count

Reply 17

hobnob

14

HJV

Could you please find me 5 "good" universities that say footnotes are included in the wordcount in their essays?

Why does it matter whether a university is "good" or not?

As you might see below, it's not just my department... :rolleyes:

So what? Those aren't even proper references to specific handbooks.

Reply 18

HJV

16

hobnob

Those aren't even proper references to specific handbooks.

Your point is?

Are you seriously trying to argue that a U of Cambridge style guide on their website will contradict their course handbook?

Feel free to look up any of those, they're all on google.

hobnob

Why does it matter whether a university is "good" or not?

Would you not consider information coming from Cambridge to be better than some from the Polytechnic of Middle of Nowhere?

Reply 19

hobnob

14

HJV

Your point is?

Are you seriously trying to argue that a U of Cambridge style guide on their website will contradict their course handbook?

No, I was seriously trying to argue that you didn't reference your sources properly. A quote tag saying "quote = Higher Education Authority of Ireland / University of Cambridge / University of Whatever" is about as vague as it gets.

Would you not consider information coming from Cambridge to be better than some from the Polytechnic of Middle of Nowhere?

In this case, no, I wouldn't, because it's not a matter of academic reputation.
But if you find dissertation style guidelines from "good" universities so much more convincing, here's a "good" university that says footnotes have to be included in the word count: link

University of Oxford, Department for English Language and Literature, extended essay guidelines (Paper 7)

Essay length:
Your essay should be no longer than 6000 words and no shorter than 5000. The word limit includes quotations and footnotes but excludes the bibliography

[The link might not be publicly accessible, but I'm sure it shouldn't be too hard to get a current student to confirm this.]

Look, I really think this is a bit of a pointless debate; we're clearly not getting anywhere, and it's neither helpful to us nor to the OP. I suggest that we just agree to disagree and drop it.

Harvard Referencing in the Bibliography and main text. + Appendixes

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