Why do people support the minimum wage? Watch

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AidenLloydJepsen
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Over the last decade or so, the minimum wage in Britain has been increasing as a measure to try and combat the cost of living crisis for Britain's most vulnerable workers. Of course, getting by on a minimum wage is still a very difficult task and the resurgence of food banks only reiterates the current state of affairs in this country. However, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest raising the minimum wage - or indeed having a minimum wage - will provide a springboard for people to escape poverty and the cost of living crisis. Let me explain:

1) It is a basic economic principle that workers and their pay are deduced by supply and demand. If there is a demand for workers, employers will have to offer a higher salary to fill the vacancy out of necessity. Similarly, if there is a shortage of supply for workers, employers will have to offer a higher salary to attract workers to the profession. In the case for jobs pertinent to the minimum wage, there is often a lack of demand and a surplus of supply; so to artificially increase the wages for these workers, you are distorting the mechanisms of market economics which in itself has immediate and long-term consequences.

2) If you increase the minimum wage, it is employers who will have to bear the burden of government intervention. Consequently, profit margins will decrease and this will force employers to invest in alternative technologies to reduce overall operating costs, such as automated checkout machines to replace checkout assistants or robotised computer algorithms to replace call-centre operatives. Employees are often the largest expense for businesses, and that expense increases, employers will look for alternatives which will result in unemployment and redundancy.

3) Even if workers are not replaced by robotics, employers might be forced to reduce bureaucracy or cut down on employees' hours. This might include changing workers from full-time to part-time contracts, abolishing middle-management positions or outright sacking employees because their services are no longer need as the business is forced to rework its business-model.

Before I go on and on, I think this video perfectly summarises the points made:



Let me know your thoughts!
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King Leonidas
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I think the minimum wage is a necessity to uphold the structure of employment. However, zero hour contracts should be abolished indefinitely.
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bones-mccoy
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(Original post by King Leonidas)
I think the minimum wage is a necessity to uphold the structure of employment. However, zero hour contracts should be abolished indefinitely.
Completely agree

The individual worker being able to provide for themselves and their family is much more important than a business losing profits
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.A_C.
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I support the NMW at this moment in time because it has allowed young people to get jobs.

When I was looking for jobs at 17/18 years of age, since I got paid less than older (and more experienced people) it is attractive to employers to get young and motivated people into work.

If everyone gets paid lets say £10 an hour regardless of age, that competitive advantage that younger people have with employers from being paid less is gone. And at that age you have little to no experience.

Food prices would go up. Employers would employ less people as it would be expensive.


It's quite straightforward really, well in my head... I'm sure you will all beg to differ.
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3121
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Nice info except this debate was settled in 1997, it was won in favour of the NMW and the tories even came to their senses.

There’s a difference between having the NMW as a protection barrier as it was intended - to stop workers being exploited, to tackle work poverty, to make sure people were paid fairly for work. When introduced Blair made it clear his stance was to be sensible about it, it should not be used a force to tackle bigger economic issues, his emphasis was always on education and training when it came to that.

So yes you make good points, but it’s an arguments that’s already been made and agreed upon, although the argument has somewhat faded with the rise of Corbyn... most still view today’s minimum wages as sensible and because of age differentials, younger people are more likely to be hired. Most supermarkets pay above the minimum wage across age groups.

Your argument was the extremes of what could’ve happened, that extreme is only possible in 2 events: the introduction of the minimum wage (which it didn’t happen) or with a drastic increase (this is against the principal of using it sensibly.) so the basis on which the NMW is used today is mostly beneficial in UK. As for the USA, I won’t get into it because it’s too complex.

We both know economic systems rely on exploitation to make the most money, it’s practically rule #1 which is why government intervention is needed.
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queenint
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(Original post by jake4198)
Over the last decade or so, the minimum wage in Britain has been increasing as a measure to try and combat the cost of living crisis for Britain's most vulnerable workers. Of course, getting by on a minimum wage is still a very difficult task and the resurgence of food banks only reiterates the current state of affairs in this country. However, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest raising the minimum wage - or indeed having a minimum wage - will provide a springboard for people to escape poverty and the cost of living crisis. Let me explain:

1) It is a basic economic principle that workers and their pay are deduced by supply and demand. If there is a demand for workers, employers will have to offer a higher salary to fill the vacancy out of necessity. Similarly, if there is a shortage of supply for workers, employers will have to offer a higher salary to attract workers to the profession. In the case for jobs pertinent to the minimum wage, there is often a lack of demand and a surplus of supply; so to artificially increase the wages for these workers, you are distorting the mechanisms of market economics which in itself has immediate and long-term consequences.

2) If you increase the minimum wage, it is employers who will have to bear the burden of government intervention. Consequently, profit margins will decrease and this will force employers to invest in alternative technologies to reduce overall operating costs, such as automated checkout machines to replace checkout assistants or robotised computer algorithms to replace call-centre operatives. Employees are often the largest expense for businesses, and that expense increases, employers will look for alternatives which will result in unemployment and redundancy.

3) Even if workers are not replaced by robotics, employers might be forced to reduce bureaucracy or cut down on employees' hours. This might include changing workers from full-time to part-time contracts, abolishing middle-management positions or outright sacking employees because their services are no longer need as the business is forced to rework its business-model.

Before I go on and on, I think this video perfectly summarises the points made:



Let me know your thoughts!
In Sweden, there is no minimum wage. Instead, businesses and corporations form agreements with labour unions dictating the given salary. In reality, all professional organizations and companies (even just local cafés) have them. The lowest possible wage given to a 16-year old college student flipping burgers at McDonald's is £7.8. A 19-year old Aldi worker has a set wage of £12. In terms of GDP growth rate, they have one of 3.3%, whilst the UK has one of 1.8%, meaning that their economy is growing almost twice as fast as the British one. Similarly, in Norway, 16-year old McDonald's employees make around £9 an hour. They have an unemployment rate of 4.5% and is one of the happiest countries in the world (in fact, all Nordic social democracies are).There is more to an economy than a mere minimum wage. Anybody telling you differently is lying to you.

Concepts like the laughably low British minimum wage and flexible zero-hour contracts are ways for capitalist corporations to exploit the workers and generate as much private profit as possible whilst putting in no working effort whatsoever whilst full-time workers have to choose between paying the light bill or putting food on the table this month.

Enjoy your economic slavery.
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bones-mccoy
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(Original post by King Leonidas)
Yep, I concur.

PS- You're piff, what's your ethnicity?

I'm guessing Thai.
I'm British hahaha mainly English with some Scot
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King Leonidas
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(Original post by bones-mccoy)
I'm British hahaha mainly English with some Scot
You need to check out Ancestry.com if you think you're mainly English and Scot lol.

Seriously though, perhaps it's just the photo!
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bones-mccoy
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(Original post by King Leonidas)
You need to check out Ancestry.com if you think you're mainly English and Scot lol.

Seriously though, perhaps it's just the photo!
I can't quite remember when I took that photo, it could have been September/October time last year though after I came back from working in America for 3 months and was really tanned. Or maybe the lighting
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Joinedup
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(Original post by jake4198)
Over the last decade or so, the minimum wage in Britain has been increasing as a measure to try and combat the cost of living crisis for Britain's most vulnerable workers. Of course, getting by on a minimum wage is still a very difficult task and the resurgence of food banks only reiterates the current state of affairs in this country. However, there is absolutely no evidence to suggest raising the minimum wage - or indeed having a minimum wage - will provide a springboard for people to escape poverty and the cost of living crisis. Let me explain:

1) It is a basic economic principle that workers and their pay are deduced by supply and demand. If there is a demand for workers, employers will have to offer a higher salary to fill the vacancy out of necessity. Similarly, if there is a shortage of supply for workers, employers will have to offer a higher salary to attract workers to the profession. In the case for jobs pertinent to the minimum wage, there is often a lack of demand and a surplus of supply; so to artificially increase the wages for these workers, you are distorting the mechanisms of market economics which in itself has immediate and long-term consequences.

2) If you increase the minimum wage, it is employers who will have to bear the burden of government intervention. Consequently, profit margins will decrease and this will force employers to invest in alternative technologies to reduce overall operating costs, such as automated checkout machines to replace checkout assistants or robotised computer algorithms to replace call-centre operatives. Employees are often the largest expense for businesses, and that expense increases, employers will look for alternatives which will result in unemployment and redundancy.

3) Even if workers are not replaced by robotics, employers might be forced to reduce bureaucracy or cut down on employees' hours. This might include changing workers from full-time to part-time contracts, abolishing middle-management positions or outright sacking employees because their services are no longer need as the business is forced to rework its business-model.

Before I go on and on, I think this video perfectly summarises the points made:



Let me know your thoughts!
The video argues against a doubling of minimum wage, not against having a minimum wage.at all or having a minimum wage that tracks slightly ahead of inflation.

The UK minimum wage hasn't ever doubled overnight and tbh probably isn't ever likely to... TBH the UK miniwage even wasn't keeping up with inflation for the 6 years after the banking crisis.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...3Lg/edit#gid=2

I haven't seen any evidence that a correctly set minimum wage is harmful to the economy, no major political parties in the UK seem to have any problem with it, or the CBI... just seems to be a touchstone of ideologically driven libertarian headcases that it must be wrong even if it works all right in practice.
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bones-mccoy
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(Original post by King Leonidas)
To be honest, it's not just your skin tone or the lighting.

Are you pouting in the photo, I only ask because your cheek bones seem slightly high, which is what gave me the impression that you had some sort of Oriental in you.

Regardless, you're cute whatever you are

Sorry for derailing thread OP lol.
Hmm maybe, I do have fairly defined cheekbones naturally but there's no Oriental anywhere in my family
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AidenLloydJepsen
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(Original post by Joinedup)
The video argues against a doubling of minimum wage, not against having a minimum wage.at all or having a minimum wage that tracks slightly ahead of inflation.

The UK minimum wage hasn't ever doubled overnight and tbh probably isn't ever likely to... TBH the UK miniwage even wasn't keeping up with inflation for the 6 years after the banking crisis.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...3Lg/edit#gid=2

I haven't seen any evidence that a correctly set minimum wage is harmful to the economy, no major political parties in the UK seem to have any problem with it, or the CBI... just seems to be a touchstone of ideologically driven libertarian headcases that it must be wrong even if it works all right in practice.
The video touches upon the conceptual contradiction of the minimum wage, in that it purports to help people escape poverty and exploitation, but actually results in more unemployment and less opportunity for the people whom it is supposed to benefit.

Of course the minimum wage hurts businesses, perhaps not the Tescos or the Amazons, but definitely small businesses which are often the backbone of Britain's economy. The Guardian has reported on "drastic steps" being taken by some businesses to cope to with new 'living wage' initiative: "Increased wages mean higher costs and this may be affecting the ability of some small businesses to grow." [1]

The rationale behind the minimum wage is not driven by ideological purity, but hard evidence.
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King Leonidas
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(Original post by Mathemagicien)
Picture taken at an odd angle =/= Thai

Is a white guy in a dark room black?
Depends how dark the room is.
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ThomH97
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A worker who is desperate can have that used against them, and the minimum wage is one of the rights afforded to all workers so that nobody can undercut them at that price.
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King Leonidas
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(Original post by ThomH97)
A worker who is desperate can have that used against them, and the minimum wage is one of the rights afforded to all workers so that nobody can undercut them at that price.
This, the purpose of minimal wage is to provide financial protection to employees (who would have once been vulnerable and susceptible to exploitation, by means of long days, minimal breaks and unsociable working hours). The contract and minimal wage is a God sent to be honest, although the sustainability of the minimum wage for families is a different argument all together.
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Sammylou40
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(Original post by queenint)
In Sweden, there is no minimum wage. Instead, businesses and corporations form agreements with labour unions dictating the given salary. In reality, all professional organizations and companies (even just local cafés) have them. The lowest possible wage given to a 16-year old college student flipping burgers at McDonald's is £7.8. A 19-year old Aldi worker has a set wage of £12. In terms of GDP growth rate, they have one of 3.3%, whilst the UK has one of 1.8%, meaning that their economy is growing almost twice as fast as the British one. Similarly, in Norway, 16-year old McDonald's employees make around £9 an hour. They have an unemployment rate of 4.5% and is one of the happiest countries in the world (in fact, all Nordic social democracies are).There is more to an economy than a mere minimum wage. Anybody telling you differently is lying to you.

Concepts like the laughably low British minimum wage and flexible zero-hour contracts are ways for capitalist corporations to exploit the workers and generate as much private profit as possible whilst putting in no working effort whatsoever whilst full-time workers have to choose between paying the light bill or putting food on the table this month.

Enjoy your economic slavery.
And the cost of living in Norway is currently 58.31% higher than the U.K. As of august 17
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looloo2134
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(Original post by queenint)
In Sweden, there is no minimum wage. Instead, businesses and corporations form agreements with labour unions dictating the given salary. In reality, all professional organizations and companies (even just local cafés) have them. The lowest possible wage given to a 16-year old college student flipping burgers at McDonald's is £7.8. A 19-year old Aldi worker has a set wage of £12. In terms of GDP growth rate, they have one of 3.3%, whilst the UK has one of 1.8%, meaning that their economy is growing almost twice as fast as the British one. Similarly, in Norway, 16-year old McDonald's employees make around £9 an hour. They have an unemployment rate of 4.5% and is one of the happiest countries in the world (in fact, all Nordic social democracies are).There is more to an economy than a mere minimum wage. Anybody telling you differently is lying to you.

Concepts like the laughably low British minimum wage and flexible zero-hour contracts are ways for capitalist corporations to exploit the workers and generate as much private profit as possible whilst putting in no working effort whatsoever whilst full-time workers have to choose between paying the light bill or putting food on the table this month.

Enjoy your economic slavery.
Nordic countries on average the cost of living is much higher than in the Uk so the wages are higher.
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nulli tertius
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(Original post by jake4198)
The video touches upon the conceptual contradiction of the minimum wage, in that it purports to help people escape poverty and exploitation, but actually results in more unemployment and less opportunity for the people whom it is supposed to benefit.

Of course the minimum wage hurts businesses, perhaps not the Tescos or the Amazons, but definitely small businesses which are often the backbone of Britain's economy. The Guardian has reported on "drastic steps" being taken by some businesses to cope to with new 'living wage' initiative: "Increased wages mean higher costs and this may be affecting the ability of some small businesses to grow." [1]

The rationale behind the minimum wage is not driven by ideological purity, but hard evidence.
The NMW is now the protector of the Tax Credits system. Any discussion of the economic impact of the NMW that does not take in account the Tax Credits system isn't worth reading.

The ideological purists then simply say Tax Credits shouldn't exist and solve the problem that way. However, as soon as someone says this, it is a bit like saying "when I was abducted by aliens".

Under various names, the Tax Credits system was created by Wilson, and has survived Callaghan, Thatcher, Major, Blair, Brown, Cameron and May with no serious threat of abolition. That indicates how divorced from the real world are the abolitionists' opinions.
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queenint
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(Original post by looloo2134)
Nordic countries on average the cost of living is much higher than in the Uk so the wages are higher.
Minimum wage retail workers between the age of 21-24 in London make £7.05 an hour, compared to Stockholm (with 24% lower living costs), where 18 year olds with a year worth of retail experience can expect a salary of £12.
Socialist countries are among the richest in the world per capita, meaning that the general population is richer and better off. The power trade unions have in Nordic countries have resulted in better conditions for workers. Furthermore, during weekends and after 8PM, Nordic workers are always paid an additional supplement for working during "inconvenient working hours", often twice their original salary (meaning the 18-year old's paid £24 an hour).

My main point is that better working conditions and higher wages do not result in decreased productivity or an economy that is worse off, as evidenced by any of the Scandinavian countries. They're among the happiest countries in the world, their life expectancy rate is higher, so is their quality of life, and their economy is prospering.
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Joinedup
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(Original post by jake4198)
The video touches upon the conceptual contradiction of the minimum wage, in that it purports to help people escape poverty and exploitation, but actually results in more unemployment and less opportunity for the people whom it is supposed to benefit.

Of course the minimum wage hurts businesses, perhaps not the Tescos or the Amazons, but definitely small businesses which are often the backbone of Britain's economy. The Guardian has reported on "drastic steps" being taken by some businesses to cope to with new 'living wage' initiative: "Increased wages mean higher costs and this may be affecting the ability of some small businesses to grow." [1]

The rationale behind the minimum wage is not driven by ideological purity, but hard evidence.
I think you mean the rationale behind opposing the minimum wage... but what you've written is actually correct.
We've had a minimum wage since the late 20th Century, maybe you can't remember but when it was being debated the same objections were raised by the conservative party; that it would cause mass unemployment, devastate business and cause inflation to spiral out of control.

but none of that ever actually happened. being a generally pragmatic bunch the tories now not only support a minimum wage, they rename it so everyone thinks it was their idea
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