B1256 - Treason and terrorism (Abolition) Bill 2017 (Second Reading) Watch

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Rakas21
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B1256 - Treason and terrorism (Abolition) Bill 2017 (Second Reading); The Rt. Hon. Aph MP
A
B I L L
T O
Repeal the crime of Treason from the British statute book.

1: Repeals
1) The following acts are repealed:
(A) Treason Act 1351
(B) Treason Act 1702
(C) Treason Act 1708
(D) Treason Act (Ireland) 1537
(E) Crown of Ireland Act 1542
(F) Treason Act 1695
(G) Treason Act 1814
(H) Treason Act 1842
(I) Treason Felony Act 1848

2: short title, extent and enactment
1) This Bill may be cited as the Treason (Abolition) Bill 2017,
2) This Bill will extend to the whole of the United Kingdom, and
3) This Bill will be enacted immediately upon Royal Assent.

notesTreason is a thought crimes, to commit you have to belive in an ideology that is against the state which means that they take the premise that the state is always right. Although heinous acts like murder have no place in today's society the idea that the murder is worse depending on what you were thinking at the time is laughable and should be rejected.
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04MR17
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Changes?
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Joep95
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Would the author of this bill support abolishing hate crimes?
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username2585877
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aye
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CoffeeAndPolitics
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Nothing on changes? Notes are very vague.
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username1524603
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(Original post by joecphillips)
Would the author of this bill support abolishing hate crimes?
If Aph includes hate crimes in this bill I shall support it.
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username2718212
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Nay, once again.
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barnetlad
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Treason is not just about murder, it can include other offences such as spying. It does not now carry the death penalty which i am opposed to. I would prefer to see a modern definition and therefore a replacement for current laws.
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TheDefiniteArticle
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Wasn't the law of treason signifiantly reformed on TSR? Anyone know off the top of their head?
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username2718212
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(Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
Wasn't the law of treason signifiantly reformed on TSR? Anyone know off the top of their head?
It was greatly reformed on here which is why I am opposed to this. I'll acquaint you with link to the Act when I find it.
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Aph
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(Original post by joecphillips)
Would the author of this bill support abolishing hate crimes?
Generally yes.
(Original post by CoffeeAndPolitics)
Nothing on changes? Notes are very vague.
Sorry, I've been very busy and rushed this to second reading whilst I had time.
(Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
Wasn't the law of treason signifiantly reformed on TSR? Anyone know off the top of their head?
Yes, that was mentioned in the first reading. I will in a future reading get rid of that. As above I was rushing not to loose this bill.
(Original post by barnetlad)
Treason is not just about murder, it can include other offences such as spying. It does not now carry the death penalty which i am opposed to. I would prefer to see a modern definition and therefore a replacement for current laws.
No it can't include spying. If spying is a crime, which it is independently of treason, the fact that it's against the state shouldn't matter.
If a person divulges state secrets as a whistle blower then they should be protected. If their actions lead to deaths they should be responsible for those deaths but not for the information.

(Original post by Nigel Farage MEP)
If Aph includes hate crimes in this bill I shall support it.
That should be a different bill IMO and would loose this bill support.
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CoffeeAndPolitics
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(Original post by Aph)
Sorry, I've been very busy and rushed this to second reading whilst I had time.
I respect that but can you please elaborate what exactly is the purpose of this bill.
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Aph
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(Original post by CoffeeAndPolitics)
I respect that but can you please elaborate what exactly is the purpose of this bill.
I, personally don't belive that treason should be a crime.
"One mans terrorist is another mans war hero"

I deplore violence and would rather everything were sorted out by negotiation and deplomacy but I recognise that that isn't always possible.
Black rights
Woman's rights
The end of apartheid
The Magna Carta!!!

All wouldn't have happened without violence and 'treason'/'terrorism'. In the first reading of this bill I took a bit of a sledgehammer approach, so here I am just trying to remove treason as an offence and will take a more nuanced approach with terrorism, because I recognise that some of the powers granted by terrorism legislation are worthwhile even if I don't belive the crimes themselves should exist.

Also, in this post I am not condoning violence as an ends to a political means. Indeed as I said I would rather there was no violence and I think that people should be punished for acts of violence, no matter the motive, but only the act should be punished and the state shouldn't assert that it is always right just and fair.
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username2718212
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(Original post by Aph)
No it can't include spying. If spying is a crime, which it is independently of treason, the fact that it's against the state shouldn't matter. If a person divulges state secrets as a whistle blower then they should be protected. If their actions lead to deaths they should be responsible for those deaths but not for the information.
Treason includes acts against the state and therefore acting against the state in such an action as spying for the enemy and divulging state secrets would be considered treason. The right honourable gentleman may say he doesn't condone violence against the state but needs to understand violence and acts against the state are more severe than most, if not all, other crimes.
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(Original post by Wilhuff Tarkin)
Treason includes acts against the state and therefore acting against the state in such an action as spying for the enemy and divulging state secrets would be considered treason. The right honourable gentleman may say he doesn't condone violence against the state but needs to understand violence and acts against the state are more severe than most, if not all, other crimes.
Acts against the state aren't worse. Would you say that someone acting against North Korea is bad? What about Syria? You cannot objectively say that our state is always right.

Also, colluding with the enemy is a crime under treason but espionage is a crime anyway.
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username2718212
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(Original post by Aph)
Acts against the state aren't worse. Would you say that someone acting against North Korea is bad? What about Syria? You cannot objectively say that our state is always right.

Also, colluding with the enemy is a crime under treason but espionage is a crime anyway.
Laws are there for a reason and your "perfect", and I use the term extremely loosely, society would be where there are no laws in order to ensure the security and continuing stability of the country.
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(Original post by Wilhuff Tarkin)
Laws are there for a reason and your "perfect", and I use the term extremely loosely, society would be where there are no laws in order to ensure the security and continuing stability of the country.
So you are saying that the state is perfect and that we shouldn't question it?
And I like your strawman.
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username2718212
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(Original post by Aph)
So you are saying that the state is perfect and that we shouldn't question it?
And I like your strawman.
We don't live in North Korea or any such place. I am making my points based in the society we live in. We don't live under a tyrannical dictator and no, our state is not perfect, but why should the citizenry be allowed to act against the state in our situation?
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Aph
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(Original post by Wilhuff Tarkin)
We don't live in North Korea or any such place. I am making my points based in the society we live in. We don't live under a tyrannical dictator and no, our state is not perfect, but why should the citizenry be allowed to act against the state in our situation?
Because what makes the state good or just? If it is above reproach it's citizens wouldn't act against it.
Laws have to be made to suit today and tomorrow. The UK could fall into a dictatorship in the future.
Also, if you accept that not all states are equal you have to accept it's wrong to tell people they should act against their oppressive states but at the same time oppress them from acting against our state.
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Rakas21
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This bill has hereby been withdrawn.
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