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Oxbridge Maths - I've dropped out.
Hey guys, for the past two months I have been a first-year student at Lincoln College reading Maths and Statistics. I have just decided to leave and I thought it’d be good to hear people’s views and maybe even relate to others in the same situation.
For me it was the course that was the problem. Calculus, Dynamics and Probability were manageable and I was turning in decent sheets despite having little interest in the work and fading motivation. LinAlg and Analysis, however, made me miserable. Of course we are told to expect a challenge and I accept that Maths will not always be thrilling, but I did not expect to feel like I really didn’t care about any of the work.
Everything was so theoretical and abstract and I couldn’t get to grips with it (or even try to remember things) no matter how many hours I stared at the books, and also there was a lot of pressure to get sheets in. I do not mind getting things wrong as long I can learn from mistakes, but the feeling was that I should understand from the first explanation. Every explanation happened too quickly and too formally, and the work seemed so dull anyway. Talking to 2nd years and fellow freshers, they didn’t seem to get down about work like me even though they agreed it was very difficult. It made me feel better, but these guys were still handing in good work and were progressing well. An older student said I was wrong to expect to understand and that I will learn to accept eventually, and that I should be able to switch off between work and social. But I couldn’t, it seriously affected my day-to-day thoughts and routine.
I should say that my feelings had nothing to do with fitting in at college. I absolutely loved it at Lincoln; there was a great community feeling and I made some fantastic friends, got involved in 1st team football, I went out and had fun, met my girlfriend... etc. But when I started to realise the course really wasn’t for me, it got me down. I went into fight or flight state initially and felt slightly sick. Then it made talking to people difficult. I dreaded lectures and tutorials. I couldn’t enjoy things and even smiling felt like a strain. The worst thing was that it made me feel stupid and insignificant and it killed any life inside of me – I used to come out of lectures and see squirrels and children playing around and I used to just stand there totally fixed. So I spoke to my parents and family members and they were incredible and came straight away to meet me in Oxford to talk. I also spoke to some very helpful maths students who tried their best to reassure me that it was normal to feel like that. But when I asked whether they enjoyed or understood anything themselves in year 2, they said that they didn’t, but that they get on with it and that the qualification will be worth it eventually. They genuinely wanted me to stay and I appreciated how much they tried to help me. But I didn’t want to put up with it for 3/4 years – the work was only going to get harder and my interest was down to zero.
So I arranged to meet the Senior Tutor and my head maths tutor. The Senior Tutor thought I was being hasty. But my maths tutor listened to me and agreed. He said he was surprised because my work had not been poor and the stats tutor had mentioned me to him because he was impressed with my interview. Anyway, after more thinking and talking with parents, I left college.
So I’m back at home and thinking. I have the option to return to Lincoln next year on another course, or reapply for another university. But to be honest, university no longer appeals to me. I know Oxford might be a special case and maybe I’d do better at another institution, but I’m convinced that I do not want to do maths - and picking another subject without properly feeling passionate about it would be wrong, and a waste of time and money. My A-Level grades are below FYI.
Maths (A), Further Maths (A), Physics (A), English Literature (a)
I have always been more scientifically minded and my f.maths module average was over 90. The literature AS was for variety and I really enjoyed it. Other notable things about me are... Head Boy of my school of around 1500, represented GB at chosen sport, work experience at national newspaper, and lots of extra-curricular achievements which I won’t list.
So what on Earth do I do? I guess one idea which I like is to join my friend when he goes travelling next year. It would probably help to get out of my little bubble and open my eyes to things. Then what? Well anything could happen but I have looked into careers and I really have no idea. Training for accountancy is something I have looked at but I get the impression I would find the content dull and therefore not go onto sit the exams. But maybe I just have to get used to things being dull for some years before I qualify? I think I am capable of doing it. Or I could learn a trade and become self-employed. Or maybe try my own business.
I guess it could have been much worse for me. Lincoln arranged to remit my fees for the term and I get to keep the Oxford bursary they gave me at the start of the year. So, financially, I worked it out and I’m pretty much even. Also I met some great people, it made me even more independent and also gave me worthwhile life experience. But at the moment I can’t see where I’m going.
Has anyone been in the same position as me? Any advice or ideas would be greatly appreciated!
(****, that's 1000 words, if you've got this far then thanks for the effort!)
For me it was the course that was the problem. Calculus, Dynamics and Probability were manageable and I was turning in decent sheets despite having little interest in the work and fading motivation. LinAlg and Analysis, however, made me miserable. Of course we are told to expect a challenge and I accept that Maths will not always be thrilling, but I did not expect to feel like I really didn’t care about any of the work.
Everything was so theoretical and abstract and I couldn’t get to grips with it (or even try to remember things) no matter how many hours I stared at the books, and also there was a lot of pressure to get sheets in. I do not mind getting things wrong as long I can learn from mistakes, but the feeling was that I should understand from the first explanation. Every explanation happened too quickly and too formally, and the work seemed so dull anyway. Talking to 2nd years and fellow freshers, they didn’t seem to get down about work like me even though they agreed it was very difficult. It made me feel better, but these guys were still handing in good work and were progressing well. An older student said I was wrong to expect to understand and that I will learn to accept eventually, and that I should be able to switch off between work and social. But I couldn’t, it seriously affected my day-to-day thoughts and routine.
I should say that my feelings had nothing to do with fitting in at college. I absolutely loved it at Lincoln; there was a great community feeling and I made some fantastic friends, got involved in 1st team football, I went out and had fun, met my girlfriend... etc. But when I started to realise the course really wasn’t for me, it got me down. I went into fight or flight state initially and felt slightly sick. Then it made talking to people difficult. I dreaded lectures and tutorials. I couldn’t enjoy things and even smiling felt like a strain. The worst thing was that it made me feel stupid and insignificant and it killed any life inside of me – I used to come out of lectures and see squirrels and children playing around and I used to just stand there totally fixed. So I spoke to my parents and family members and they were incredible and came straight away to meet me in Oxford to talk. I also spoke to some very helpful maths students who tried their best to reassure me that it was normal to feel like that. But when I asked whether they enjoyed or understood anything themselves in year 2, they said that they didn’t, but that they get on with it and that the qualification will be worth it eventually. They genuinely wanted me to stay and I appreciated how much they tried to help me. But I didn’t want to put up with it for 3/4 years – the work was only going to get harder and my interest was down to zero.
So I arranged to meet the Senior Tutor and my head maths tutor. The Senior Tutor thought I was being hasty. But my maths tutor listened to me and agreed. He said he was surprised because my work had not been poor and the stats tutor had mentioned me to him because he was impressed with my interview. Anyway, after more thinking and talking with parents, I left college.
So I’m back at home and thinking. I have the option to return to Lincoln next year on another course, or reapply for another university. But to be honest, university no longer appeals to me. I know Oxford might be a special case and maybe I’d do better at another institution, but I’m convinced that I do not want to do maths - and picking another subject without properly feeling passionate about it would be wrong, and a waste of time and money. My A-Level grades are below FYI.
Maths (A), Further Maths (A), Physics (A), English Literature (a)
I have always been more scientifically minded and my f.maths module average was over 90. The literature AS was for variety and I really enjoyed it. Other notable things about me are... Head Boy of my school of around 1500, represented GB at chosen sport, work experience at national newspaper, and lots of extra-curricular achievements which I won’t list.
So what on Earth do I do? I guess one idea which I like is to join my friend when he goes travelling next year. It would probably help to get out of my little bubble and open my eyes to things. Then what? Well anything could happen but I have looked into careers and I really have no idea. Training for accountancy is something I have looked at but I get the impression I would find the content dull and therefore not go onto sit the exams. But maybe I just have to get used to things being dull for some years before I qualify? I think I am capable of doing it. Or I could learn a trade and become self-employed. Or maybe try my own business.
I guess it could have been much worse for me. Lincoln arranged to remit my fees for the term and I get to keep the Oxford bursary they gave me at the start of the year. So, financially, I worked it out and I’m pretty much even. Also I met some great people, it made me even more independent and also gave me worthwhile life experience. But at the moment I can’t see where I’m going.
Has anyone been in the same position as me? Any advice or ideas would be greatly appreciated!
(****, that's 1000 words, if you've got this far then thanks for the effort!)
Scroll to see replies
Travelling for a year sounds like a good plan; it's a cliche to say it, but after a year without academic focus (the first significant time away from it you've had since you were 5) you may hopefully find it easier to decide whether you want to get back into a degree course or not. Given your intelligence and degree prospects the kind of careers you would presumably be considering are just not going to be very open to you in your present position - there's always the option of joining a big business and working your way up, but again it means starting low and boring, so is that something you want to do?
What other degree options have you considered? There's subjects where you can apply some maths (or just the ability to think logically) without it getting quite so theoretical (which was one of your complaints above I think?) - does compsci appeal at all? Physics? Even Engineering or Economics? Given that you say you were otherwise very happy at Oxford and fitting in fine, I'm very suprised your tutors let you drop out without making a pretty serious effort to get you just to change to a different degree instead, as that's not a hugely unusual thing for new undergrads to do.
What other degree options have you considered? There's subjects where you can apply some maths (or just the ability to think logically) without it getting quite so theoretical (which was one of your complaints above I think?) - does compsci appeal at all? Physics? Even Engineering or Economics? Given that you say you were otherwise very happy at Oxford and fitting in fine, I'm very suprised your tutors let you drop out without making a pretty serious effort to get you just to change to a different degree instead, as that's not a hugely unusual thing for new undergrads to do.
I can't really offer concrete advice, but I can offer my little life anecdote, which you may find helpful.
I graduated high school in 2006 at the top of my class, and not to toot my own horn, but I never worked very hard. School was something that came naturally to me. I enrolled at NYU with advanced standing, made amazing friends, was in my favorite city in the world.. nothing seemed to be wrong on the outside. However, I was finding just showing up to class difficult. I had no interest in my schoolwork. I had no motivation, no desire to learn anything. Second semester I swtiched into a course that was more suitable.. landed the internship of my dreams.. and could barely get out of bed.
I hated school. The worse I felt, the ****tier my grades got and the less I wanted to do. THe work wasn't hard, I was actually turning in decent to A level work, but I was barely showing up, lacking participation.. and just all around not getting the education I should have for $50kUSD.
Anyway, I came home feeling absolutely worthless this summer. In a really bizarre chain of events I was unable to return to NYU because of my parents' cracked out financial situation.. and here I sit home in NJ.. without anything academic to do. And let me tell you... I miss it. I even read old textbooks from time to time. Through all that crap at NYU I figured out what actually interested me.. and am using this time off to just work and build my motivation back up.
I want nothing more to be back in a classroom. I worked for some Fortune 500 companies, famous actresses, various film companies.. and could have done without uni. It was the old case of 'you don't know what you've got til it's gone.'
So here I am.. applying to Oxford and other UK schools. In my opinion, time off really may be best for you. It really straightened my head out and made me realize what it was that I want to study. It may not be maths for you. Who knows. Go travel. Work.. and just keep your options open. Read around a bit on subjects you weren't sure about. I spent a few weeks in London in October and went from never wanting to leave NYC.. to being dead-set on studying in the UK.
It's your life. You don't want to spend your education slugging through something that isn't interesting to you. The result is the feeling you have, and I had. But it can go away, and you can move on. I never thought I'd want to go back to school again. I treated it like a nasty-ex or something haha.. I was just so pissed at my experience at uni.. but now I am ready to move on with a clear head.
The time off will be good for you. I promise. You're lucky to have the option of Lincoln still.. plus you could apply plenty of other places. Go to some open days, read some prospectuses.. and most importantly, do what you feel is best for you.
Hope my sad story was even slightly analagous? Best of luck to you, I hope everything works out
I graduated high school in 2006 at the top of my class, and not to toot my own horn, but I never worked very hard. School was something that came naturally to me. I enrolled at NYU with advanced standing, made amazing friends, was in my favorite city in the world.. nothing seemed to be wrong on the outside. However, I was finding just showing up to class difficult. I had no interest in my schoolwork. I had no motivation, no desire to learn anything. Second semester I swtiched into a course that was more suitable.. landed the internship of my dreams.. and could barely get out of bed.
I hated school. The worse I felt, the ****tier my grades got and the less I wanted to do. THe work wasn't hard, I was actually turning in decent to A level work, but I was barely showing up, lacking participation.. and just all around not getting the education I should have for $50kUSD.
Anyway, I came home feeling absolutely worthless this summer. In a really bizarre chain of events I was unable to return to NYU because of my parents' cracked out financial situation.. and here I sit home in NJ.. without anything academic to do. And let me tell you... I miss it. I even read old textbooks from time to time. Through all that crap at NYU I figured out what actually interested me.. and am using this time off to just work and build my motivation back up.
I want nothing more to be back in a classroom. I worked for some Fortune 500 companies, famous actresses, various film companies.. and could have done without uni. It was the old case of 'you don't know what you've got til it's gone.'
So here I am.. applying to Oxford and other UK schools. In my opinion, time off really may be best for you. It really straightened my head out and made me realize what it was that I want to study. It may not be maths for you. Who knows. Go travel. Work.. and just keep your options open. Read around a bit on subjects you weren't sure about. I spent a few weeks in London in October and went from never wanting to leave NYC.. to being dead-set on studying in the UK.
It's your life. You don't want to spend your education slugging through something that isn't interesting to you. The result is the feeling you have, and I had. But it can go away, and you can move on. I never thought I'd want to go back to school again. I treated it like a nasty-ex or something haha.. I was just so pissed at my experience at uni.. but now I am ready to move on with a clear head.
The time off will be good for you. I promise. You're lucky to have the option of Lincoln still.. plus you could apply plenty of other places. Go to some open days, read some prospectuses.. and most importantly, do what you feel is best for you.
Hope my sad story was even slightly analagous? Best of luck to you, I hope everything works out
Well, I can't say that my situation is the same as yours but I have felt, at times, whether the road that I'm headed was the right path for me but I hope you find something to help you below.
You have an opportunity to "down tools" as it were; to engage in something else; to explore different avenues of thought and interests. It's easier to take a year out now than at the end of your degree.
This year, whatever you decide to do in it, will have at most four general outcomes:
1) Reaffirm that you want to go back to your original course.
2) Go back to your college for a different degree.
3) Go to another university.
4) Don't go back to university.
You seem a bright lad so I wouldn't suggest the later therefore your aims seem clearer.
Use this time to diversify your sphere. Since the day you choice your a-levels you became to specialize your thought and ideas, in your case to science and maths. I would therefore suggest you look to see whether this is your real interest by looking into humanities or social sciences. Something you haven't readily considered before as this could a eye opener into a new world.
You don't have to travel if you don't want to but a little breathing space may clear the confusion/ disillusion you are feeling. However, I would suggest that if you travel for an extended period of time that this may be counter-active as you may put things off in a "out of sight; out of mind" way.
Time is the real factor here and, unfortunately, it runs out.
Don't abuse it while you have it because when it gone then that's when the real problems begin.
Good luck and all the best.
If you get worried or just need someone to talk it all it with then your in good company - this place is full of sympathetic ears.
You have an opportunity to "down tools" as it were; to engage in something else; to explore different avenues of thought and interests. It's easier to take a year out now than at the end of your degree.
This year, whatever you decide to do in it, will have at most four general outcomes:
1) Reaffirm that you want to go back to your original course.
2) Go back to your college for a different degree.
3) Go to another university.
4) Don't go back to university.
You seem a bright lad so I wouldn't suggest the later therefore your aims seem clearer.
Use this time to diversify your sphere. Since the day you choice your a-levels you became to specialize your thought and ideas, in your case to science and maths. I would therefore suggest you look to see whether this is your real interest by looking into humanities or social sciences. Something you haven't readily considered before as this could a eye opener into a new world.
You don't have to travel if you don't want to but a little breathing space may clear the confusion/ disillusion you are feeling. However, I would suggest that if you travel for an extended period of time that this may be counter-active as you may put things off in a "out of sight; out of mind" way.
Time is the real factor here and, unfortunately, it runs out.
Don't abuse it while you have it because when it gone then that's when the real problems begin.
Good luck and all the best.
If you get worried or just need someone to talk it all it with then your in good company - this place is full of sympathetic ears.
Allthewayhome
Time is the real factor here and, unfortunately, it runs out.
Don't abuse it while you have it because when it gone then that's when the real problems begin.
Time is the real factor here and, unfortunately, it runs out.
Don't abuse it while you have it because when it gone then that's when the real problems begin.
To be honest my main advice would be the exact opposite. Don't feel pressured, don't feel as though time is ticking away and you need to make decisions NOW. Take a break, be glad that Lincoln is reserving your place for you, and do something to distract you for a while until the time comes to figure out what you want to be doing. Travelling could be good to clear your head, getting a job could be good for figuring out whether uni life might have been the right thing for you after all. Without knowing your exact age, I'm pretty sure you're still young enough to where no-one is going to care if you spend a bit of time in and out of uni doing some "soul-searching".
Kane_Is_Able
I had no motivation, no desire to learn anything. Second semester I swtiched into a course that was more suitable.. landed the internship of my dreams.. and could barely get out of bed.
Are you applying for a different subject in the UK than you were doing in the US?
I think you were too hasty. I'm a first year mathmo at Exeter College, and I sort of know how you feel(/felt), but I think you were dead wrong.
I suppose pressure on you might have been a factor, it seems a bit lax at my college. The linear algebra is difficult to understand until it is put into real terms, and your tutors are there to help you with problems if you are really stuck.
Strangely, I think the opposite way around, that the Analysis and the LinAl can be interesting at times, wheras the calc and dynamics are boring at all times (not sure about the probibility yet, it's ok).
I just can't imagine what would make you want to drop out, when all you had a problem with was two courses, one of which the lecturer said at the start of term might be tedious (analysis) and one of which my tutor said was fairly useless and not very interesting on it's own (LinAl). Plus, I'm not sure how much related material you have to take in further years.
:/ I guess I'm not you, so I can't really tell what it was like for you.
As for a gap year, try lots of new things. Ever wanted to be a musician? Try and bum a living as one.
I suppose pressure on you might have been a factor, it seems a bit lax at my college. The linear algebra is difficult to understand until it is put into real terms, and your tutors are there to help you with problems if you are really stuck.
Strangely, I think the opposite way around, that the Analysis and the LinAl can be interesting at times, wheras the calc and dynamics are boring at all times (not sure about the probibility yet, it's ok).
I just can't imagine what would make you want to drop out, when all you had a problem with was two courses, one of which the lecturer said at the start of term might be tedious (analysis) and one of which my tutor said was fairly useless and not very interesting on it's own (LinAl). Plus, I'm not sure how much related material you have to take in further years.
:/ I guess I'm not you, so I can't really tell what it was like for you.
As for a gap year, try lots of new things. Ever wanted to be a musician? Try and bum a living as one.
Davetherave
Are you applying for a different subject in the UK than you were doing in the US?
Sort of..
There is a method to my madness [..looking at my courses in my sig]
Basically I was doing a double honors major in journalism and middle eastern studies, however the journalism degree sucked [way too vocational, we were basically taught to be puppets of the NY Times] and the Middle Eastern Studies department was horribly run, offering only 3 or 4 classes a semester ranging from Hebrew studies to Egyptian history.. whereas I am interested mostly in Islam and the Arab world.
The courses I chose at KCL, UCL and LSE are there almost as backups, to allow me to go a bit broader in my study of religions and its participants, instead of just Islam.
And that was probably way more information than you cared to know
Sabzi
LinAlg and Analysis, however, made me miserable.
That is a shame. Linear Algebra is fun and not too hard at all.
In fact, I am reading it in my spare time for amusement and am working my way through Strang´s book ¨Linear Algebra and it´s applications¨.
I must admit that I have never done analysis, but I hear that Rosenlicht´s Introduction to Analysis is a fun read.
However, I guess that Maths is not for you, if you didnt enjoy it.
A bit of a shame I guess.
But if you are intelligent and numerate enough to get into Maths at Oxford, I am sure that there will be many other things you can do.
My friend hated analysis. He just forced himself through Mods and switched to Maths and Stats to avoid it as much as possible in future.
Take a deep breath and chat you your friends at Lincoln and other colleges about their subjects, what the involve, what they like and don't like. Get an informed, insider view and see if anything attracts your interest. But do it soon...
Take a deep breath and chat you your friends at Lincoln and other colleges about their subjects, what the involve, what they like and don't like. Get an informed, insider view and see if anything attracts your interest. But do it soon...
Why not think about going into more applied stuff, i.e. physics? If you don't want loads of dry, seemingly irrelevant stuff (at the start), try something that has theory and practice (sort of).
Of course you must do what doesn't make you want to shrivel up and die but it seems like Lincoln are being pretty cool in giving you a second chance - and you said yourself that it's a great place in which to be, with great people. If it doesn't work a second time just run away and inform the college by email so it doesn't have to be as embarrassing
Or maybe you could, having English and after doing a bit of research, consider physics and philosophy?
Of course you must do what doesn't make you want to shrivel up and die but it seems like Lincoln are being pretty cool in giving you a second chance - and you said yourself that it's a great place in which to be, with great people. If it doesn't work a second time just run away and inform the college by email so it doesn't have to be as embarrassing
Or maybe you could, having English and after doing a bit of research, consider physics and philosophy?
From what I read, I think you made the right decision to drop out. If you think about it, the subject itself is what you're mainly there for- it's what you will be studying in great depth for 3 or 4 years. You may have had a really great experience outside the subject (social life etc.) but it's also really important, if not more so, that you enjoy the subject. I think the best thing to do would be to take a year out. Get away from the confines of education and go travelling or work. A year will give you time to think over what you want to do and you'll have the chance to get away from the pressures of uni etc. Some people find that after they've done A-levels or even during them that they still don't really know what they want to do, and so often taking time out can help make it a whole lot clearer. In any case, don't regret your decision- what will be will be,and I think it was a wise one, made with the support of your tutors, friends nd family. It seems that maths at Oxford was just not quite right for you, but I'm sure you'll be ok in the end Good luck!
Good luck!
I'd just like to point out to those of you suggesting he considers CompSci that that's probably not the best option - the first year Maths element of that contains a significan portion of Linear Algebra which the OP didn't enjoy (I remember my CompSci friends complaining about it). Similarly, there is a lecture course on it in the 2nd year of the Physics degree too.
OP, I can't offer you any better advice than what's already been offered, but I'm glad you've found Lincoln supportive throughout the issue. Have you spoken to our Acaff Officer at all btw - she might be able to put you in touch with other people who have changed courses from Maths to something else or even people that didn't come back to Oxford after leaving and give you a good perspective of what others in your situation have done. All the best with what ever you decide.
OP, I can't offer you any better advice than what's already been offered, but I'm glad you've found Lincoln supportive throughout the issue. Have you spoken to our Acaff Officer at all btw - she might be able to put you in touch with other people who have changed courses from Maths to something else or even people that didn't come back to Oxford after leaving and give you a good perspective of what others in your situation have done. All the best with what ever you decide.
How about you use the rest of a year as a gap year? You go on to try new things, talk with many people and attempt to discover where your real interests lie. It might be something in the direction of PPE, or the less abstract engineering. Make a choice, and then go back next year to Lincoln, as you said you loved the college.
Compsci is quite mathsey, and certainly more applied than maths, but there are some shared topics with maths course. If you fancy talking about compsci let me know- send me a private message, or if you come back to visit lincoln i'm sure we could meet up if you're interested in discussing it.
Why are so many TSR Oxonians at Lincoln?
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