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    (Original post by abdullahhh)
    only if you believe in the existence of God, will you live a righteous life.......
    the concept of reward and punishment after death..........

    otherwise you cannot live a righteous life, according to your belief you can kill any one orr rob him and get away with it in the end. but if you belive in God you can never get away with any thing wrong you do.
    However, if you believe in god you can punish the wicked unbelievers by taking their country from them, killing them, taking their wives and daughters as concubines and putting their property to godly use, all with god's approval.
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    (Original post by Baron)
    doesn't god forgive?
    Of course. It's his job, according to Heine.
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    (Original post by abdullahhh)
    and 1 more thing thing Muhammad (pbuh) did NOT make Islam.
    If he did then how in the Quran are there similar stories of moses and soloman as in the bible??
    Plagiarism.
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    (Original post by abdullahhh)
    ohh yeah i did not say that he was`nt
    Muhammad was born in Makkah how the hell did he got all those stories???
    he was not the son of a jew so getting those stories was not easier for him than for jesus, is`nt it????
    Actuaklly, Mo's dad was a jew. There were a load of xtians and jews in Mecca so he had plenty of opportunities to hear their legends.
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    I think abdullahhh is very confused indeed.

    Not least of which in the fact that this thread is about belief/disbelief in the existence of god, not about whether Islam is a better religion than Christianity or Judaism.

    Every time he has raised a misinformed, disingenuous argument for the existence of god, we have easily explained why he is wrong.

    So, all he can resort to is nonsense stories, such as boys without parents. You could prove he had parents by testing the genetic similarity between himself and his relatives; if no relatives can be found, we could still prove that he had parents by testing the genetic composition of his sperm, half of which would contain a Y chromosome (inherited from his father); and the mitochondrial DNA will have been inherited from his mother. You could show that since all children have parents, and this particular boy is a perfectly ordinary human child, that the greatest likelihood is that he had parents, rather than he was created spontaneously.

    (Original post by abdullahhh)
    The prophets were given miraculous powers By GOD
    Moses was given a staff( a stick) which could turn into a snake and made way through a river, jesus could heal terminally ill people, Muhammad (pbuh) at one point was approached by the unbelievers who asked him to show a miracle and when he pointed at the moon it broke into two pieces!!! which later came together and many other different prophets.......solomon had control over the wind,etc
    You may say this is indisputable fact but these events were not independently verified and recorded by impartial eyewitnesses. Neither have these events been subsequently replicated in the modern era, when we have the scientific apparatus and expertise to test conclusively whether there is a natural explanation - how convenient.

    I think an event like the Moon being broken into two pieces would have been recorded by every culture on Earth, yet this only turns up in the myths of one religion. Unlikely, to say the least.

    (Original post by abdullahhh)
    only if you believe in the existence of God, will you live a righteous life.......
    the concept of reward and punishment after death..........

    otherwise you cannot live a righteous life, according to your belief you can kill any one orr rob him and get away with it in the end. but if you belive in God you can never get away with any thing wrong you do.
    It is very sad that you believe morals and ethics can only come from a belief in punishment after death. Do you really think that atheists are completely amoral libertines, running around raping and murdering whoever they like? That sounds more like the Janjaweed militia in Darfur!

    (Original post by abdullahhh)
    Hey baron I would advice you to read the Quran and the bible and all other books of major religions and compare them your self.
    I would suggest you follow your own advice. If you did so, you would quickly realise how logically inconsistent the texts are both within themselves and between eachother. You should also read books of philosophy, psychology, anthropology and science, which would help you understand that religion is entirely man-made, and god is a figment of your imagination.

    (Original post by abdullahhh)
    you prove to me that God does not exist!
    The concept of a 'burden of proof' is important in debates - whoever has a burden of proof is obligated to 'prove' their claims in some fashion. If someone doesn't have a burden of proof, then their job is much easier: all that is required is to either accept the claims or point out where they are inadequately supported. In debates between atheists and theists, who has the burden of proof? The 'burden of proof' is clearly on the party making the extraordinary claim.

    You claim that an omnipotent, omnipresent, omnibenevolent, omniscient supernatural being created the universe and even now is directly watching us and influencing our actions. That is quite an extraordinary claim. I think you are mistaken, so give me some solid evidence, other than a general belief about what you think.

    I know the sun and pluto are there because all the available data indicates this to be true. Even before we knew about the existence of pluto, it was still there and could have been proved, simply by looking at it with a powerful telescope.

    (Original post by abdullahhh)
    Look at it this way...........
    if athiests are rite I am not doomed nor am I in any kind of disadvantage rite??
    But what if those who belive in God are rite???
    The punishment in hell???
    There is a famous philosophical question, known as Pascal's Wager:

    If there is a God, He is infinitely incomprehensible, since, having, neither parts nor limits, He has no affinity to us. We are then incapable of knowing either what He is or if He is ... you must wager. It is not optional. You are embarked. Which will you choose then? Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing. Wager then without hesitation that he is.
    Pascal's argument sounds deceptively attractive. Many a religious person finds this argument decisive. After all, they say, if I believe and then it turns out to be true I get to enjoy heavenly bliss; but if my belief turns out to be false, and there is no god, then when I die, I lose nothing. An atheist, the religious person may continue, if he turns out to be wrong will suffer an eternity of torment. If the atheist turns out to be right then it is only equal to the believer's 'worst case'. Obviously then, the believer will say, you must wager on the side of belief.

    But this argument is seriously flawed.

    1. If god is infinitely incomprehensible, then in theory, there would be an infinite amount of possible theologies/religions about god, all of which are equally probable. We cannot measure the probability of the correctness of each theology when the subject they teach is supposed to be infinitely incomprehensible.

    2. The theist claim of a special status for divinely revealed texts, such as the Torah, New Testament and Qu'ran, is untenable. Many important details about the lives of the prophets are either false or historically suspect. Religious theology is easily shown to be a confused, irrational system. The major teachings and claims of religion are false.

    3. When you make a wager to believe, you become morally responsible for the propagation of suffering that your religion had and will continue to bring upon the world. This moral responsibility also applies to so-called liberals or moderates. While you may do little harm directly, you provide the raw material from which fundamentalism builds itself.

    4. It is debatable whether religion actually makes a person moral. History seems to tell us otherwise. Many religious leaders throughout history have been morally deficient human beings; so too were many of the early fathers of religion, reformers and many modern preachers (priests, imams etc.). They preached and continue to preach intolerance and hate and have sometimes actively encouraged the torture and murder of innocent people.

    5. The world today is in need of our undivided, moral and rational, attention. The problems of the world, both natural and man-made are many: famine, disease, floods, climate change, extinction of plants and animals, etc. The only chance the world has is for humankind to understand that this world is all we have, there is no other, no judgement day, no heaven, no hell, no afterlife at all. Only we can solve the world's problems.

    The solutions for the problems of the world and for life in general are not to be found in religion or a belief in god. Religion, in fact, is part of the problem.

    On both intellectual and moral grounds the only course for a person to take is the rejection of Pascal's wager, i.e. atheism or, at the very least, agnosticism.
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    I admire your arguments spk, but I don't think people like abdullahhh are going to be affected in the slightest. Once you are that far into a fantasy, you will sustain it indefinitely, because any evidence to the contrary is simply a test of faith from god :rolleyes:
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    Gotta try, though. Especially with Muslims and Christians.
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    (Original post by Weejimmie)
    However, if you believe in god you can punish the wicked unbelievers by taking their country from them, killing them, taking their wives and daughters as concubines and putting their property to godly use, all with god's approval.

    Dude you are mistaken, God forbiden the believers to do such things to any one irrespective of whether or not he or she is a believer.
    The believers are strictly only to fight in self defence.
    If someone does otherwise then he will be punished for it.
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    If someone shows you guys a miracle then would you believe in God???
    The evidence that the prophets existed is as authentic as the existence of darwin or your great grandfather because there are many descendents of the prophets even today.
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    (Original post by abdullahhh)
    If someone shows you guys a miracle then would you believe in God???
    The evidence that the prophets existed is as authentic as the existence of darwin or your great grandfather because there are many descendents of the prophets even today.
    Show me a miracle - if it is shown to be beyond any explanation other than the supernatural/divine, then yes, I would have to eat my hat.

    There is no proof of the existence of the Old Testament prophets other than what's in the Bible itself. It might represent the records of previous oral traditions with a small grain of truth, but with no other sources, we can never be sure.

    All the evidence for the existence of Jesus comes from unreliable non-eyewitness accounts, most of which were written many decades after his supposed death.

    It may well be possible that there is verifiable proof of the existence of other 'prophets' born after Jesus but there is certainly no evidence of divine revelation, miracles or that they knew god personally.
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    The descendents of the prophets are still there, and there is also material evidence that they existed.........Moses`s staff, Joeusf`s turban and many other things of daily use are still there.
    Even the remains of the cities that were destroyed by them are also still there.
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    I am very very sure that your great great grand fathers were believers, try to find out about them if you can. Im saying this because religion and prophets existed since the first man steped on earth.
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    (Original post by abdullahhh)
    I am very very sure that your great great grand fathers were believers, try to find out about them if you can. Im saying this because religion and prophets existed since the first man steped on earth.
    Whether or not my relatives are or were believers has no bearing on the fact that religion is made up and god doesn't exist. As civilization advances, and scientific progress increases, the more people understand that all there is in this life is this world, here and now - no hell below us, above us only sky.

    Religion obviously didn't exist since the first man steped on earth, as humans evolved from ape-like ancestors who would have not had the cerebral ability to imagine a god or religion. They were just animals with no higher, rational thought processes. :rolleyes:
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    Hehe, great argument, my great great grandfather was religious therefore I should be religious. What the hell does that have to do with anything? My great great grandfather could have been a murderer, should I go and murder people too? I am my own person, I have my own beliefs and make my own decisions about things. One of those beliefs is that religion is a load of phooey.
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    (Original post by spk)
    Whether or not my relatives are or were believers has no bearing on the fact that religion is made up and god doesn't exist. As civilization advances, and scientific progress increases, the more people understand that all there is in this life is this world, here and now - no hell below us, above us only sky.

    Religion obviously didn't exist since the first man steped on earth, as humans evolved from ape-like ancestors who would have not had the cerebral ability to imagine a god or religion. They were just animals with no higher, rational thought processes. :rolleyes:
    Human beings did not evolve from any other animal, human beings were human beings all along and if we did evolve from them then why the hell are we so different from other species??????
    why is our way of life so different???
    if we came from other species then why arent there people half human and half tiger or half human and half whale?!?!?!?
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    (Original post by abdullahhh)
    Human beings did not evolve from any other animal, human beings were human beings all along and if we did evolve from them then why the hell are we so different from other species??????
    why is our way of life so different???
    if we came from other species then why arent there people half human and half tiger or half human and half whale?!?!?!?
    You've never heard of chimpanzees, gorillas or Neanderthals, then? :rolleyes:

    Chimpanzees are our closest living relatives in the animal kingdom - over 98.7% of our genome is identical to theirs. In fact, we chimps and humans are more closely related to eachother, than chimps are with gorillas. The human and chimp lineages diverged about 5 million years ago.

    At one time, there were even three different kinds of human species living on the planet at the same time - around 300 000 years ago modern humans (Homo sapiens), Neanderthals (Homo neanderthalensis), and the last surviving remnants of Homo erectus. Due to a number of reasons, including climate change, and competition with Homo sapiens, Neanderthals and Homo erectus eventually became extinct.

    Your point about half-whales is also interesting, since there is ample fossil evidence from India and Pakistan showing that the earliest whales (living 50 million years ago) had four legs.

    You really should read some books like this, to help you overcome your lack of knowledge:

    The Ancestor's Tale: A Pilgrimage to the Dawn of Life - Richard Dawkins
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...803582-1155823

    The Blind Watchmaker - Richard Dawkins
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...803582-1155823

    Darwin's Dangerous Idea: Evolutions and the Meanings of Life - Daniel Dennett
    http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...803582-1155823
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    (Original post by abdullahhh)
    Dude you are mistaken, God forbiden the believers to do such things to any one irrespective of whether or not he or she is a believer.
    Really? Take a look at the spread of islam. The normal procedure was to give "people of the book" the choices: conversion, submission or war; unbelievers the choices: conversion, death or war.
    The believers are strictly only to fight in self defence.
    If someone does otherwise then he will be punished for it.
    However, the believers can pre-emptively defend themselves.
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    (Original post by abdullahhh)
    If someone shows you guys a miracle then would you believe in God???
    David Hume in chapter 10 of his Enquiry concerning Human Understanding gives an excellent examination of how to determine whether an inexplicable event is or is not a miracle.
    The evidence that the prophets existed is as authentic as the existence of darwin or your great grandfather because there are many descendents of the prophets even today.
    There are people who claim to be descended from people they believe were prophets. This is not evidence that the prophets existed. The existence or non-existence of the alleged prophets is irrelevant to the existence or nonexistence of god.
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    (Original post by abdullahhh)
    The descendents of the prophets are still there, and there is also material evidence that they existed.........Moses`s staff, Joeusf`s turban and many other things of daily use are still there.
    There may be a piece of wood, or a piece of cloth: this is not evidence that it belonged to the people concerned.
    Even the remains of the cities that were destroyed by them are also still there.
    There are archaeological remains of ancient cities. This is not proof that they were destroyed by prophets. Presumably the fact that there are windmills in Spain with damaged sails is proof- by your standards- that Don Quixote fought them.
 
 
 
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