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    They clearly don't care about the democratic result of the EU ref now that they are talking about staying in the single market. They are still fighting this battle between Centrists and Socialists leaving them no time to talk about what most of their supporters want. Labour has been pretty much dead since 2010, the only reason they got minor victories this year is from remainers who wanted to protest 'hard brexit'. The fact that Labour was happy with losing and agreed to keep their leader proves that they intend to remain an opposition party.

    So that begs the question, what is the point of a party of out of touch activists?
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    wow it's almost asif people have different political opinions which align with different political parties ors oemthing

    crazy thought
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    The minor victories this year weren't at all just because of Remainers protesting a hard Brexit. IMO a large majority of votes would have been from people protesting against another Conservative lead government which they felt was out of touch with the public's needs, having called a) a referendum on a complex subject that the public was uninformed on, potentially as a tact to get voters from the UKIP camp in the previous election and b) called another general election at a time when the government should have been setting out a clear strategy for Brexit negotiations. I can't give hard statistics on that but speaking to a lot of people and watching news and debates and that was the message I got.

    The question of where Labour lies on the political spectrum is still quite tricky; I believe Corbyn is pushing them towards the left but there are a lot of hardcore Blair-style centrist MPs within the party, which is I think where a lot of the dispute occurs.
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    (Original post by uponthyhorse)
    The minor victories this year weren't at all just because of Remainers protesting a hard Brexit. IMO a large majority of votes would have been from people protesting against another Conservative lead government which they felt was out of touch with the public's needs, having called a) a referendum on a complex subject that the public was uninformed on, potentially as a tact to get voters from the UKIP camp in the previous election and b) called another general election at a time when the government should have been setting out a clear strategy for Brexit negotiations. I can't give hard statistics on that but speaking to a lot of people and watching news and debates and that was the message I got.

    The question of where Labour lies on the political spectrum is still quite tricky; I believe Corbyn is pushing them towards the left but there are a lot of hardcore Blair-style centrist MPs within the party, which is I think where a lot of the dispute occurs.
    I agree part of the reason for Conservative losses was because May assumed she would win so the party put together a shoddy canpaign and manifesto. Also the increase in youth voters contributed but at the end of the day, Labour has no idea exactly what it stands for. They know Corbyn's socialism will not convince the general public yet they can't propose anything sensible for fear of the momentum mob.
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    (Original post by Sami50)
    They clearly don't care about the democratic result of the EU ref now that they are talking about staying in the single market. They are still fighting this battle between Centrists and Socialists leaving them no time to talk about what most of their supporters want. Labour has been pretty much dead since 2010, the only reason they got minor victories this year is from remainers who wanted to protest 'hard brexit'. The fact that Labour was happy with losing and agreed to keep their leader proves that they intend to remain an opposition party.

    So that begs the question, what is the point of a party of out of touch activists?
    Staying in the single market for a few years is absolutely vital for the UK.

    The Labour under Corbyn is pretty insane on many issues, but they are the sensible ones on this.
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    (Original post by Sami50)
    They clearly don't care about the democratic result of the EU ref now that they are talking about staying in the single market.
    Since when did democracy ignore 48% of the vote? Democracy has always been about compromise. We voted only to leave the EU. We didn't vote on what that means in practice.
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    (Original post by Sami50)
    They clearly don't care about the democratic result of the EU ref now that they are talking about staying in the single market. They are still fighting this battle between Centrists and Socialists leaving them no time to talk about what most of their supporters want. Labour has been pretty much dead since 2010, the only reason they got minor victories this year is from remainers who wanted to protest 'hard brexit'. The fact that Labour was happy with losing and agreed to keep their leader proves that they intend to remain an opposition party.

    So that begs the question, what is the point of a party of out of touch activists?
    So that there is a party For the Many Not the Few.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Since when did democracy ignore 48% of the vote? Democracy has always been about compromise. We voted only to leave the EU. We didn't vote on what that means in practice.
    We went into the referendum under this understanding, that whoever wins will influence the end result. Now people are talking about thresholds of 60% etc but why didn't people mention that before.
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    (Original post by JMR2017)
    So that there is a party For the Many Not the Few.
    It seems clear that 'the many' don't support Labour.
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    (Original post by Sami50)
    We went into the referendum under this understanding, that whoever wins will influence the end result.
    No we didn't. The question on the poll was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?" I see no mention of anything else, or any form of understanding that such and such a party should lead negotiations. And the recent general election would seem to indicate the electorate don't have that much faith in the Tories as they don't have a mandate any more.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    No we didn't. The question on the poll was "Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union?" I see no mention of anything else, or any form of understanding that such and such a party should lead negotiations. And the recent general election would seem to indicate the electorate don't have that much faith in the Tories as they don't have a mandate any more.
    Does any party have a stronger mandate?
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    (Original post by Sami50)
    Does any party have a stronger mandate?
    The Tories did. Then they threw it away.
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    The problem right now, with brexit and also with wider UK politics is no one is willing to compromise on anything. We voted to leave the EU, but there was nothing on that ballot paper about how we exit and what our future relationship will look like.
    Now, hardline brexiteers are saying that the electorate voted for the hardest brexit imaginable and to hell with any possible consequences while remainers are saying that the electorate didn't know what it was voting for and the result should stand (The extremes of each side).
    Surely the smartest solution would be what Labour is suggesting, that we transition slowly out of the EU in a time that is as short as possible but as long as necessary. You can't buy a house in a day, you can't get a new company up and running at max efficiency in a day, we need to stop pretending that 2 years is enough time to deal with the complexities of leaving the EU while also negotiating our future relationship, especially if were so unwilling to be members of the single market with the trade offs that brings


    Personally though, I think the reason that the Tory party are so against a transition period is that it will be seen as failing brexit, they would lose the UKIP vote as well as some of their own core vote. They would get trounced at the next election, especially after what happened at the last one. Also, if things to take a turn for the worst in regards to the economy & trade and the people realise that immigration can't just be slashed to zero without serious damage to national industries then it would be a lot easier to keep that transitional arrangement going, if not transition back into being a member of the EU rather than joining again as a "new" member

    Just my 2 cents anyway
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    (Original post by dickwhittington)
    The problem right now, with brexit and also with wider UK politics is no one is willing to compromise on anything. We voted to leave the EU, but there was nothing on that ballot paper about how we exit and what our future relationship will look like.
    Now, hardline brexiteers are saying that the electorate voted for the hardest brexit imaginable and to hell with any possible consequences while remainers are saying that the electorate didn't know what it was voting for and the result should stand (The extremes of each side).
    Surely the smartest solution would be what Labour is suggesting, that we transition slowly out of the EU in a time that is as short as possible but as long as necessary. You can't buy a house in a day, you can't get a new company up and running at max efficiency in a day, we need to stop pretending that 2 years is enough time to deal with the complexities of leaving the EU while also negotiating our future relationship, especially if were so unwilling to be members of the single market with the trade offs that brings


    Personally though, I think the reason that the Tory party are so against a transition period is that it will be seen as failing brexit, they would lose the UKIP vote as well as some of their own core vote. They would get trounced at the next election, especially after what happened at the last one. Also, if things to take a turn for the worst in regards to the economy & trade and the people realise that immigration can't just be slashed to zero without serious damage to national industries then it would be a lot easier to keep that transitional arrangement going, if not transition back into being a member of the EU rather than joining again as a "new" member

    Just my 2 cents anyway
    If Brexit is delayed now, it may never happen at all and we would remain on the edge of exit for a long time. This is not good for the economy. Politicians won't want to risk their careers and may choose the easy option of passing on the job. Remaining in the single market is pointless as it means we are no longer a member of the EU but it's servant instead, still having to comply with all it's rules.
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    (Original post by Sami50)
    It seems clear that 'the many' don't support Labour.
    They did significantly increase their vote share and only "lost" because they were so far behind in the polls when the election was called.

    A number of opinion polls since the election (including from the two companies who got it pretty much spot on - Yougov and Survation) have put Labour in the lead.

    So it's nowhere near as clear cut as you're making out.
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    (Original post by Sami50)
    If Brexit is delayed now, it may never happen at all and we would remain on the edge of exit for a long time. This is not good for the economy. Politicians won't want to risk their careers and may choose the easy option of passing on the job. Remaining in the single market is pointless as it means we are no longer a member of the EU but it's servant instead, still having to comply with all it's rules.
    Yup, markets and businesses don't like uncertainty but you're saying that like crashing out of the EU with no deals in place and no trade deals to sign is somehow not going to spook the markets either. The point of a transition period isn't to remain perpetually within, I doubt the EU would let us do that anyway but to allow us time to negotiate future partnerships, possibly with other countries outside the EU while maintaining as seamless trade as possible with the continent

    Also

    (Original post by Sami50)
    If Brexit is delayed now, it may never happen at all
    Which is precisely what hardline brexiteers are so scared of, They want no time for the gravitas of exactly what is taking place to sink in. By the time the people realise the possible damage that crashing out might bring, they want to be halfway down the road screaming NO TAKIE BACKSIES

    Id rather brexit was done sensibly and took as long as needed than rushed through flippantly while causing serious economic unrest
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    (Original post by Sami50)
    They know Corbyn's socialism will not convince the general public yet they can't propose anything sensible for fear of the momentum mob.
    No party has ever received a majority of the popular vote since the Second World War, so it could be argued that it is not necessary to convince the 'general public'.
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    The Labour Party lost its sense of purpose in the late 1980s as a result of the demise of heavy industry. There were no longer enough blue collar voters to enable a Labour victory. Since Blair took over, Labour has resorted to a combination of populism, personality politics, anti-Tory with Tory economic policies, the ethnic and immigrant votes, the public sector votes, the Guardian reading intellectual left from trendy cities votes, and promising to scrap tuition fees. What is keeping Labour together, albeit as a split and divided party internally, is the FPTP election system. Under PR Labour would have fragmented into different parties a long time ago.
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    (Original post by Sami50)
    They clearly don't care about the democratic result of the EU ref now that they are talking about staying in the single market.
    This is correct. It serves only to demonstrate the totally duplicitous nature of Corbyn and the Loonies and that the party has now become the:

    Anti-Democracy Party

    It was already getting puerile with the Loonies pandering to each and every demographic of the electorate promising the moon on a stick but the shocking U-Turn on BrExit in order to acquire the Remainers votes is both shallow and disgusting. This party, in its current state, has absolutely no place in UK politics or in leading the country.

    (Original post by Sami50)
    They are still fighting this battle between Centrists and Socialists leaving them no time to talk about what most of their supporters want. Labour has been pretty much dead since 2010, the only reason they got minor victories this year is from remainers who wanted to protest 'hard brexit'.
    Again true. They won the seats they did because of Remainers voting tactically to scupper hard BrExit and because they bribed/duped/mislead the young electorate.

    The FACTs are that 7 years ago in the 2010 election Looney Labour only managed 258 seats and this election they only managed 262, essentially the same. So in 7 years they have learned absolutely nothing at all and have failed in their attempts to try and dupe the majority of the country with vapourware promises. Primarily though I believe it is Corbyn himself with his reputation for supporting the IRA, calling Hamas and Hezbollah friends and failing to deal with anti-Semitism in the party, that has lost Labour the election.

    Corbyn is unelectable plain and simple and the Loonies will never progress from this point until and unless they oust him and the despicable militant hard left wing of the party who behaved appallingly during the election, issuing death threats, damaging opposition MPs property, throwing bricks through windows, spitting at people and so on. There is simply no place in UK politics for that kind of Labour yob mentality.

    Labour have 5 years to get their act together and given that they HAVE to get a new leader in place and that the electorate will want a good deal of time to suss out that new leader and assess whether he/she is respectable, worthy and capable of being the PM, then they really need to get a move on.

    Luckily for the more honourable side of the party, the unions are now planning to get rid of old Compo, Comrade Corbyn.

    Unions plot to replace Jeremy Corbyn

    http://www.express.co.uk/comment/col...EU-Theresa-May

    "Plotting against the Labour leader has begun among some of the most powerful figures in the union movement. Many suspect June's poll surge to have marked the peak of Corbynism and that under his leadership the only way now is down"

    "Watch the unions. They are already on the move," one senior Labour moderate in touch with efforts to replace the leader told me."
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    I better not get started in the referendum being _democratic_
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