The best way to deal with North Korea is to do nothing

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username2766878
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#1
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#1
Yes, North Korea is advancing its missile technology. Yes, North Korea is proliferating. On the surface it seems very alarming. A communist totalitarian state making fiery threats of nuclear holocaust. Proclamations of ash and destruction! Relax. It's all bluff and bluster. North Korea poses no real threat to the outside world. The only reason it's going to such lengths to develop its nuclear arsenal is because the Kim regime fears being dislodged either by the US (with its endless obsession with regime change) or, because of recent events in volatile parts of the world where dictators have been overthrown by the populace, its own impoverished and half-starved people who are being increasingly penetrated by smuggled in foreign media. Keeping the country on edge about the prospect of a catastrophic nuclear war is a good way to distract its population from the failings of the communistic economy.

Kim Jong Un isn't stupid. He knows the moment he actually uses any of his weaponry North Korea will be finished. Kim's interested in rational self-preservation. Quite frankly, the status quo is fine. Sometimes the best way to defeat your enemy is to let it defeat itself. If the North Korean state continues to invest significant amounts of its national expenditure on nuclear weapons despite having a tiny economy which can barely serve the material needs of ordinary people, its own people will rise up and get rid of it (eventually). The only thing obstructing that is the West's overt consternation. Kim wants a response and he's getting one. It's much easier for state propaganda to use actual incidents of its purported enemy threatening "fire and fury" than fabricating it.

Does that mean we should ignore other countries potentially contributing to nuclear proliferation? Absolutely not. But we have to be realistic and recognise that the point of intervention for North Korea is long gone. Unless you're willing to risk lots of bloodshed and potentially millions of dead South Koreans, the best course of action against North Korea is to better enforce the sanctions already in place and ignore each missile test. There's a good phrase on the internet which can be applied in these circumstances: don't feed the trolls. That applies to geopolitical ones too.
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Trinculo
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#2
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#2
I doubt you would feel this way were you a South Korean or Japanese.
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username2766878
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#3
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#3
(Original post by Trinculo)
I doubt you would feel this way were you a South Korean or Japanese.
I can see why, given proximity, South Korea and Japan would feel more apprehensive. But the truth remains the same. North Korea has no reason to use their nukes unless we give them one. I'm pretty sure South Koreans and Japanese people prefer the status quo to the possible consequences of North Korean retaliation to American intervention which would affect them first. North Korea is not a threat. It isn't some expansionist Nazi German style power looking to build a Greater Korea.

Besides, what would your solution be? Bomb them? Then what? You haven't destroyed their nukes but you've given them a good reason to start firing their artillery on Seoul.
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Trinculo
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#4
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#4
(Original post by Sycatonne23)
I can see why, given proximity, South Korea and Japan would feel more apprehensive. But the truth remains the same. North Korea has no reason to use their nukes unless we give them one. I'm pretty sure South Koreans and Japanese people prefer the status quo to the possible consequences of North Korean retaliation to American intervention which would affect them first. North Korea is not a threat. It isn't some expansionist Nazi German style power looking to build a Greater Korea.

Besides, what would your solution be? Bomb them? Then what? You haven't destroyed their nukes but you've given them a good reason to start firing their artillery on Seoul.
You're talking like North Korea is a rational entity that can be reasoned with, and a leadership that are not worshipped as gods incarnate.

The whole country is an utter utter basket case that would be funny were it not for the unspeakable human misery that they have caused.

People in South Korea must look at the insanity, the starvation, the genocide, the concentration camps; and then hear people over hear and all round the world talk about the evil of American interventionism. Were it not for American interventionism, there would be no Samsung, no Hyundai. The people of South Korea would be either long dead, in slavery or mindless drones.

There's no good solution, but gambling on appeasement isn't really an option. We know for fact it doesn't work.
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ImagineCats
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#5
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#5
(Original post by Sycatonne23)
Relax. It's all bluff and bluster.

North Korea poses no real threat to the outside world.

Kim Jong Un isn't stupid. He knows the moment he actually uses any of his weaponry North Korea will be finished.

Sometimes the best way to defeat your enemy is to let it defeat itself.

If the North Korean state continues to invest significant amounts of its national expenditure on nuclear weapons despite having a tiny economy which can barely serve the material needs of ordinary people, its own people will rise up and get rid of it (eventually).

It's much easier for state propaganda to use actual incidents of its purported enemy threatening "fire and fury" than fabricating it.

Does that mean we should ignore other countries potentially contributing to nuclear proliferation? Absolutely not. But we have to be realistic and recognise that the point of intervention for North Korea is long gone. Unless you're willing to risk lots of bloodshed and potentially millions of dead South Koreans, the best course of action against North Korea is to better enforce the sanctions already in place and ignore each missile test. There's a good phrase on the internet which can be applied in these circumstances: don't feed the trolls. That applies to geopolitical ones too.
Eh, your overall point is arguably true about how we should ignore it yet not ignore it- but Kim wasn't even elected. Convinced the gove will come after me if I insult him, but if he wasn't elected through a democracy then thats that really. Nicaraguans get me here.

Personally I believe the people will never stand up and revolt. We're dealing with leaders/dictators way worse than the Stasi in the DDR, worse than the Guesteppo- it took a pretty long time for people to learn to stay quiet, and people have learnt through history that thats a good way to keep you and your famalam and your cats alive. Theres gotta be some completely silent movement going on, and with techy stuff getting big in this world I hope to god they get help from silicon valley or somewhere like that, but completely on the down low. No idea how, but its gotta be possible. Shhhh shhhh to winnnn

Maybe military intervention is gone (yep it'll risk s.koreans and russians, but how is Elon Musk so successful?? yea) but there's so many other ways to intervene. Cyber attacks, I heard, is one of the best ways. Yeah the internets banned/censured etc, but as if the dictator doesn't use this cmon

Smart idea, but if we're gonna sit back and rely on the odds of them ruining themselves, youre sounding a lot like Corbyn wanting a lil cute chit chat with terrorists to sort things out so we'll all be happy and eat cake filled with rainpows and happiness. Wake up, nah

Soz if this comes accross as rude, but I love this topic and anyone who has an interest in it (not often for 18 year olds sadly) so gotta get it out my system ygm
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0zzu
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#6
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#6
This is how I deal with my little brother.
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username2766878
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#7
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#7
(Original post by Trinculo)
You're talking like North Korea is a rational entity that can be reasoned with, and a leadership that are not worshipped as gods incarnate.

The whole country is an utter utter basket case that would be funny were it not for the unspeakable human misery that they have caused.

People in South Korea must look at the insanity, the starvation, the genocide, the concentration camps; and then hear people over hear and all round the world talk about the evil of American interventionism. Were it not for American interventionism, there would be no Samsung, no Hyundai. The people of South Korea would be either long dead, in slavery or mindless drones.

There's no good solution, but gambling on appeasement isn't really an option. We know for fact it doesn't work.
I'm not against intervention, but there's a difference between smart intervention and stupid intervention. Military intervention against North Korea at this point would be strategically pointless, tactically catastrophic and start a third world war with China which would not accept the fall of the North Korean regime. The intervention in 1949 against the North to protect the South was a necessary and courageous step against the advance of communism but it was undertaken under very different circumstances, North Korea wasn't a nuclear armed nation and China was relatively insignificant on the world stage. At this point there is no military option against North Korea. The best strategy right now is to let them waste their resources on nukes they'll never use as a first strike and hope the people rise up one day.
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username2766878
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#8
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#8
(Original post by ImagineCats)
Eh, your overall point is arguably true about how we should ignore it yet not ignore it- but Kim wasn't even elected. Convinced the gove will come after me if I insult him, but if he wasn't elected through a democracy then thats that really. Nicaraguans get me here.

Personally I believe the people will never stand up and revolt. We're dealing with leaders/dictators way worse than the Stasi in the DDR, worse than the Guesteppo- it took a pretty long time for people to learn to stay quiet, and people have learnt through history that thats a good way to keep you and your famalam and your cats alive. Theres gotta be some completely silent movement going on, and with techy stuff getting big in this world I hope to god they get help from silicon valley or somewhere like that, but completely on the down low. No idea how, but its gotta be possible. Shhhh shhhh to winnnn

Maybe military intervention is gone (yep it'll risk s.koreans and russians, but how is Elon Musk so successful?? yea) but there's so many other ways to intervene. Cyber attacks, I heard, is one of the best ways. Yeah the internets banned/censured etc, but as if the dictator doesn't use this cmon

Smart idea, but if we're gonna sit back and rely on the odds of them ruining themselves, youre sounding a lot like Corbyn wanting a lil cute chit chat with terrorists to sort things out so we'll all be happy and eat cake filled with rainpows and happiness. Wake up, nah

Soz if this comes accross as rude, but I love this topic and anyone who has an interest in it (not often for 18 year olds sadly) so gotta get it out my system ygm
No not at all, these discussions benefit from blunt frankness.

Cyber attack on what? North Korea's population is virtually shut out from the digital world. I don't want to us to negotiate with Kim Jong Un at all, I want to keep the status quo in place but stop inflating North Korean ego by responding in such a panicked manner each time North Korea tests a missile. Kim Jong Un relies on the support of the elite in Pyongyang to stay in charge. Better enforcing sanctions as I mentioned in the original post would squeeze the ability of them to import luxury goods and put pressure on the regime. We've got to be very cautious in our handling of NK, it isn't much of a threat right now but if we overstep and move too harshly into military intervention we risk starting a world war because China will certainly intervene to support the regime (no way Beijing will allow a reunified Korea with the prospect of American troops on their border or risk North Korean refugees flowing into China).
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92hannah
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#9
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#9
oh no North Korea got nukes, wait so do USA and Israel.The USA, UK and other UN ruling nations just wanna keep the weak and poor, weak and poor

Open ur eyes people anytime a country stands up to rulers like USA and refuses to be exploited, or arms itself so it can't be bullied it is considered a rebel bad country

Like when the China took hong kong back from the UK, then china is bad because it refuse to be bullied.

Just a shame when the USA told India, China Russia that they can't have nukes they got told where to go.
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92hannah
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#10
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#10
(Original post by ImagineCats)
Eh, your overall point is arguably true about how we should ignore it yet not ignore it- but Kim wasn't even elected. Convinced the gove will come after me if I insult him, but if he wasn't elected through a democracy then thats that really. Nicaraguans get me here.
Not elected through a democracy, you mean not handpicked by the USA or UK is your real issue.

If he was a dictator that did everything the USA told him to and let them exploit his country then The US, UK and European media would love him to bits
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paul514
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#11
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#11
(Original post by Sycatonne23)
Yes, North Korea is advancing its missile technology. Yes, North Korea is proliferating. On the surface it seems very alarming. A communist totalitarian state making fiery threats of nuclear holocaust. Proclamations of ash and destruction! Relax. It's all bluff and bluster. North Korea poses no real threat to the outside world. The only reason it's going to such lengths to develop its nuclear arsenal is because the Kim regime fears being dislodged either by the US (with its endless obsession with regime change) or, because of recent events in volatile parts of the world where dictators have been overthrown by the populace, its own impoverished and half-starved people who are being increasingly penetrated by smuggled in foreign media. Keeping the country on edge about the prospect of a catastrophic nuclear war is a good way to distract its population from the failings of the communistic economy.

Kim Jong Un isn't stupid. He knows the moment he actually uses any of his weaponry North Korea will be finished. Kim's interested in rational self-preservation. Quite frankly, the status quo is fine. Sometimes the best way to defeat your enemy is to let it defeat itself. If the North Korean state continues to invest significant amounts of its national expenditure on nuclear weapons despite having a tiny economy which can barely serve the material needs of ordinary people, its own people will rise up and get rid of it (eventually). The only thing obstructing that is the West's overt consternation. Kim wants a response and he's getting one. It's much easier for state propaganda to use actual incidents of its purported enemy threatening "fire and fury" than fabricating it.

Does that mean we should ignore other countries potentially contributing to nuclear proliferation? Absolutely not. But we have to be realistic and recognise that the point of intervention for North Korea is long gone. Unless you're willing to risk lots of bloodshed and potentially millions of dead South Koreans, the best course of action against North Korea is to better enforce the sanctions already in place and ignore each missile test. There's a good phrase on the internet which can be applied in these circumstances: don't feed the trolls. That applies to geopolitical ones too.
Oh what a load of crap, doing nothing the past few decades is what has brought us to where we are.

Only war will end this, sanctions and diplomacy doesn't work with them
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uberteknik
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#12
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#12
(Original post by 92hannah)
oh no North Korea got nukes, wait so do USA and Israel.The USA, UK and other UN ruling nations just wanna keep the weak and poor, weak and poor

Open ur eyes people anytime a country stands up to rulers like USA and refuses to be exploited, or arms itself so it can't be bullied it is considered a rebel bad country

Like when the China took hong kong back from the UK, then china is bad because it refuse to be bullied.

Just a shame when the USA told India, China Russia that they can't have nukes they got told where to go.
Do you wear a tin foil hat?
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s.xw
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#13
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#13
It doesn't matter how crazy Kim is, he still wants to live. And the second he launches a successful nuclear attack he and his regime is as good as dead.

The absolute worst thing the US can do right now is launch a preemptive nuclear attack.
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miser
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#14
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#14
I don't understand what the basis for this line of thinking is. There's no reason to believe North Korea is rational and interested in self-preservation. If that were the case, they'd be making reassuring statements instead of threatening ones.

But now we have not one but two irrational actors, and if either one of them does something stupid, it could start a catastrophe, whether strictly intended or not.

The truth is if this situation fails to be contained and North Korea attacks Japan or South Korea, me and a lot of people I know could die. The situation is not totally fine, it's dangerous.
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An-Lushan
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#15
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#15
Conflict may now be an inevitability and China is to blame for their lack of cooperation with the west, and their own reluctance to impose sanctions on North Korea.Nuclear threats can no longer be taken with a pinch of salt if they actually have the capabilities to do so.

It is no use laughing off North Korea's capacity for conflict.They won't fight a war conventually anyway.It will be similair to Vietnam and Afghanistan except their supply lines are right in their backyard all the way to the Chinese border.
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Fullofsurprises
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#16
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#16
(Original post by Sycatonne23)
If the North Korean state continues to invest significant amounts of its national expenditure on nuclear weapons despite having a tiny economy which can barely serve the material needs of ordinary people, its own people will rise up and get rid of it (eventually).
This has to be a hope, but the evidence is against it. Let's not forget that there was widespread and deep starvation (with millions on the edge of death or dying) some years ago when sanctions last bit the DPRK hard and the government survived it. We shouldn't underestimate the extent to which the regime control every aspect of the population's lives in the country and render them incapable of active protest. This is shown most clearly by the extraordinary struggles that dissidents have in leaving the country and the horrible stories they tell once the few who make it to safety can speak.

We are dealing with a ghastly regime that doesn't give a stuff about the welfare of the people and so long as it has the army behind it (kept onside via better pay, food and more fear) it's not going to change.

The closest comparison with NK is something like a Mexican drug cartel - they rule by fear.
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Fullofsurprises
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#17
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#17
(Original post by paul514)
Only war will end this, sanctions and diplomacy doesn't work with them
Actually, they have (temporarily) worked with them in the past - at one time, they were willing to have UN inspections and had ostensibly given up aspirations to nuclear weapons in exchange for food aid and other things, to end sanctions.

The problem here is that we are dealing with a regime used to blackmail. They learned the wrong lesson from past interactions with the world - that making lots of threats would eventually get them more goods and food to keep their population happier or at least not potentially insurrectionist. In their madcap, ill informed way, that's what they are currently engaged in - they imagine that the US will back down and that they and China will make another deal involving pandering to the regime in exchange for some kind of notional climbdown on nukes.

At least, that's one theory - the other is that they are completely cracked and in their own bizarre mental processes, imagine they (the regime leaders and the generals) can survive armageddon.

One reason why they might think that and have some rational basis to it is China - they still, despite applying sanctions, don't show any sign of being willing to let the regime go. Recent noises from Beijing indicate they will still defend it if it comes to war.
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quackers2003
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#18
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#18
NUKE EM!
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AmeliaLost
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#19
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#19
People seem to be forgetting, or not be aware, that the reason North Korea hates the US is because they "stole" South Korea: reunification is their end goal. I am concerned about the North using the threat of nuclear warfare/MAD to continuously push their borders further south until they 'reunite' Korea. There has to be pressure on them to prevent this.
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Trinculo
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#20
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(Original post by Fullofsurprises)
Actually, they have (temporarily) worked with them in the past - at one time, they were willing to have UN inspections and had ostensibly given up aspirations to nuclear weapons in exchange for food aid and other things, to end sanctions.

The problem here is that we are dealing with a regime used to blackmail. They learned the wrong lesson from past interactions with the world - that making lots of threats would eventually get them more goods and food to keep their population happier or at least not potentially insurrectionist. In their madcap, ill informed way, that's what they are currently engaged in - they imagine that the US will back down and that they and China will make another deal involving pandering to the regime in exchange for some kind of notional climbdown on nukes.

At least, that's one theory - the other is that they are completely cracked and in their own bizarre mental processes, imagine they (the regime leaders and the generals) can survive armageddon.

One reason why they might think that and have some rational basis to it is China - they still, despite applying sanctions, don't show any sign of being willing to let the regime go. Recent noises from Beijing indicate they will still defend it if it comes to war.
I don't know that the Chinese actually have a clue what to do. They have so much invested in North Korea in terms of historical and old school ideological capital. Last time round, they more or less were at war with the allied powers - but now - pretend for a moment that China were a democracy - who in China would give a fig for North Korea? The average Chinese person has nothing invested in a crazy state that actually tries to practice communism, whereas the Chinese are far closer to the South Koreans in general consumerism and unabated capitalism.

To me, it looks like North Korea is this weird step-child that China has - and has grown up to be an appalling trouble maker, but they just don't know what to do with it and they feel they'll defend it to the death just because it's family - but at no point do they actually approve of anything it does.
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