What do you think of grammar schools?

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StressedCoffee
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I went to one and I know that a lot of people don't like them. I wanted to hear why and maybe debunk any misconceptions or confirm any truths about them. I'll try to be as truthful as possible.
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username3511674
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I hate them. I think they are evil because they are not the engines of social mobility they are supposed to be. They are a disgusting invention.

They are a form of social mobility for the already fairly well-off to become better off, rather than for the genuinely disadvantaged to become better off. In a way, they are even more evil than private schools.

Thank GOD Theresa May didn't win this year's election.
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StressedCoffee
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(Original post by beatles17)
I hate them. I think they are evil because they are not the engines of social mobility they are supposed to be. They are a disgusting invention.

They are a form of social mobility for the already fairly well-off to become better off, rather than for the genuinely disadvantaged to become better off. In a way, they are even more evil than private schools.

Thank GOD Theresa May didn't win this year's election.
I do admit that they are not fair and I'm glad no more are being built. But I'm working class and the opportunity of getting a better education than my particular local comp was one I was glad to take. At my school there was a large amount of working class students and I'm sure they all felt similar. That being said, my parents did pay for me to get tuition that was originally to improve my maths skills but also trained me up for entrance exam tests. They made sure to put money aside for this. I understand that it's an unfair advantage as other parents may not be able to afford it. However my grammar school gave me a great work ethic and far better grades than I would have gotten if I had gone to the comp. Do you think they should all be shut down and focus be put on making all state schools better?
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Pigster
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(Original post by beatles17)
Thank GOD Theresa May didn't win this year's election.
If [she] didn't win, who did?
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r3035
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I would rather go to one than a state school where 50% of students don't speak English and there is a loud siren that blares in the middle of a lesson to remind Muslim students to go and pray.

People should have high standards.

People should aim for the best.
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mojojojo101
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(Original post by r3035)
I would rather go to one than a state school where 50% of students don't speak English and there is a loud siren that blares in the middle of a lesson to remind Muslim students to go and pray.

People should have high standards.

People should aim for the best.
wow... the racism is real with this one...


Grammar schools do not work. All the data.I have see n shows that in balance the effect is a decrease in social mobility. In other words they actually make the problem they are explicitly supposed to solve even worse.
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r3035
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(Original post by mojojojo101)
wow... the racism is real with this one...
Islam is not a race.

Speaking a language does not make you a certain race.
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Paralove
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Data, research, studies all show that they do not in any way improve social mobility. The vast majority of grammars take in far less disadvantaged kids than the national average. I don't believe that the teaching is really any better in grammars than comps generally - their results are always going to be better when they're selective in who they teach in the first place, and grades correlate much more with family background than the kind of school you go to. If your parents already have a higher level of education, they will value it more, pressure you to work hard/can actually help you with your school work. Equally, a stable homelife seriously aids in your ability to perform well at school. The worst performing schools are typically in the most deprived areas. A student who is being moved from care placement to care placement is hardly going to be focussed on their schoolwork.

Also: https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-conte...FACT-SHEET.pdf
https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...d-by-new-study
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Terry Tibbs
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They're pretty pointless. It's the environment of the school that leads to a better education, the teaching quality is secondary. The reason state schools lead to a worse education is because you're surrounded by working class kids with no ambition and mediocre parents, the opposite is the case in grammar schools.

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HoldThisL
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I think they're good and we just need more of them.
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username2337813
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I've been studying at a grammar school for the entirety for my secondary education and stayed on for sixth-form too. My brother also goes to a grammar school. I wouldn't be satisfied going elsewhere for my education and in that way, I like my school. I also live in a borough where there are 7 grammar schools, so its the norm that if you have an academically brilliant child, you would send them to one. Don't really have any other opinions aside from there shouldn't be any more built.
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StressedCoffee
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(Original post by Paralove)
Data, research, studies all show that they do not in any way improve social mobility. The vast majority of grammars take in far less disadvantaged kids than the national average. I don't believe that the teaching is really any better in grammars than comps generally - their results are always going to be better when they're selective in who they teach in the first place, and grades correlate much more with family background than the kind of school you go to. If your parents already have a higher level of education, they will value it more, pressure you to work hard/can actually help you with your school work. Equally, a stable homelife seriously aids in your ability to perform well at school. The worst performing schools are typically in the most deprived areas. A student who is being moved from care placement to care placement is hardly going to be focussed on their schoolwork.

Also: https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-conte...FACT-SHEET.pdf
https://www.theguardian.com/educatio...d-by-new-study
Do you think think grammar schools should be left alone or fazed out (I assume you're in favour of not having any more built)
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Paralove
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(Original post by StressedCoffee)
Do you think think grammar schools should be left alone or fazed out (I assume you're in favour of not having any more built)
They shouldn't exist.
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username3511674
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(Original post by StressedCoffee)
I do admit that they are not fair and I'm glad no more are being built. But I'm working class and the opportunity of getting a better education than my particular local comp was one I was glad to take. At my school there was a large amount of working class students and I'm sure they all felt similar. That being said, my parents did pay for me to get tuition that was originally to improve my maths skills but also trained me up for entrance exam tests. They made sure to put money aside for this. I understand that it's an unfair advantage as other parents may not be able to afford it. However my grammar school gave me a great work ethic and far better grades than I would have gotten if I had gone to the comp. Do you think they should all be shut down and focus be put on making all state schools better?
I believe the standard of comprehensives in general would improve if grammar and private schools were shut down (but that's never going to happen). The standard of comprehensives improved when most grammar schools were shut down in the late 70s (considering that comprehensives were really bad before then). Also, comprehensives tend to be worse in areas with grammar schools present.

I'm not even necessarily against things like academic selection and segregation, but I am against it at such a young age. The 11-plus is a very flawed exam that does not indicate intelligence or academic ability. Not to mention how "academic" you are at age 11 does not always determine how "academic" you will be at a later age, some people can advance or even deteriorate rapidly over a short period of time. People aren't permanently 'average' or permanently 'brilliant'. It's perfectly possible for anyone who does extremely well in one stage of their education to completely screw up in the next stage and vice versa. It happens all the time.

However (and this will probably sound very hypocritical) I also agree that comprehensives aren't exactly great either (although maybe they're not great because of the existence of better schools?), and frankly I'd do anything to make sure my own children (if I have any) don't go to one. I'm from a relatively privileged middle-class background in South East England and I went to supposedly the best comprehensive school in my area. Even there, I had a rough time and I feel like I've had a very average education (especially compared to almost everyone I met at university).

I also don't like the ethos of comprehensive schools, where everyone is essentially told that they are "average" and that they should be grateful that at least they don't live in a third world country. There's also so much more emphasis on being 'popular' than there is on getting top grades. Teachers generally only care about you being "on target" (i.e. getting 'C's), whereas being "quiet" is raised as a concern. Whereas at grammar and private schools, everyone is told that they are "special" and that with hard work they can accomplish anything. There's a healthier attitude towards learning, which I like. But everyone should be exposed to this.
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Galahad_
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Another way to divide classes. Just my opinion though.
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4ÆM
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I think they're great, absolutely love them.
If the well off kids have private schools, then what's wrong with hard working kids having grammar schools?
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StressedCoffee
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(Original post by beatles17)
I believe the standard of comprehensives in general would improve if grammar and private schools were shut down (but that's never going to happen). The standard of comprehensives improved when most grammar schools were shut down in the late 70s (considering that comprehensives were really bad before then). Also, comprehensives tend to be worse in areas with grammar schools present.

I'm not even necessarily against things like academic selection and segregation, but I am against it at such a young age. The 11-plus is a very flawed exam that does not indicate intelligence or academic ability. Not to mention how "academic" you are at age 11 does not always determine how "academic" you will be at a later age, some people can advance or even deteriorate rapidly over a short period of time. People aren't permanently 'average' or permanently 'brilliant'. It's perfectly possible for anyone who does extremely well in one stage of their education to completely screw up in the next stage and vice versa. It happens all the time.

However (and this will probably sound very hypocritical) I also agree that comprehensives aren't exactly great either (although maybe they're not great because of the existence of better schools?), and frankly I'd do anything to make sure my own children (if I have any) don't go to one. I'm from a relatively privileged middle-class background in South East England and I went to supposedly the best comprehensive school in my area. Even there, I had a rough time and I feel like I've had a very average education (especially compared to almost everyone I met at university).

I also don't like the ethos of comprehensive schools, where everyone is essentially told that they are "average" and that they should be grateful that at least they don't live in a third world country. There's also so much more emphasis on being 'popular' than there is on getting top grades. Teachers generally only care about you being "on target" (i.e. getting 'C's), whereas being "quiet" is raised as a concern. Whereas at grammar and private schools, everyone is told that they are "special" and that with hard work they can accomplish anything. There's a healthier attitude towards learning, which I like. But everyone should be exposed to this.
I agree with a lot of what you say but I don't agree with the belief that grammar schools have a healthier attitude towards learning. In fact many of my teachers (most have taught at comps previously) said they find our learning environment to be quite toxic. When you're constantly told that you should be academically brilliant, you are constantly under pressure to get top grades and feel like rather pathetic when you fall behind. We also develop the habit of comparing ourselves to our peers all the time, an B grade for instance becomes embarrassing when most of the class has A grades. Once one of my teachers commented on my lack of enthusiasm over my gcse grades, my focus was entirely on my lower ones rather than my more more successful ones despite the fact that I achieved unexpected higher grades in some subjects and all my grades were above a pass. The school didn't care if you had greatly improved, they only cared if you got A/A*s so that reflected in my own opinions of my grades. It was all rather unhealthy.
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StressedCoffee
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(Original post by serah.exe)
I think they're great, absolutely love them.
If the well off kids have private schools, then what's wrong with hard working kids having grammar schools?
What if you're not necessarily deserving of your place? I'm sure if I hadn't gotten any tuition I would not have gained my place at a grammar school. I may have taken the place of a more academically gifted child who had not been fortunate enough to have 2 hours of tuition a week.
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4ÆM
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(Original post by StressedCoffee)
What if you're not necessarily deserving of your place? I'm sure if I hadn't gotten any tuition I would not have gained my place at a grammar school. I may have taken the place of a more academically gifted child who had not been fortunate enough to have 2 hours of tuition a week.
Well if the more academically gifted child applied then maybe he would've got in. It's not impossible to get in without tuition.
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Paralove
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(Original post by serah.exe)
Well if the more academically gifted child applied then maybe he would've got in. It's not impossible to get in without tuition.
Not quite as simple as that. These exams aren't 'tutor proof', if you throw a kid into a test they aren't familiar nor confident with, they're likely to do worse than someone with tuition, even if the tutored kid is not as 'academic' (which at that age is utter bs anyway).
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