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Original post by QE2
No she hasn't. She just offered Nissan bribes to make up any competitiveness shortfall caused by Brexit. Nissan can still close the factory and walk away if they see fit - just as they could before the referendum.


yes so as I said she has dealt with that also there is no competitiveness shortfall. The remainers talk about damage to the economy but don't talk about the damage already done to our fishing industry or our export markets outside the EU
Original post by mariachi
the real power in the EU is the EU Council, which is composed by representatives of the Member States' Governments

each of these Governments, in turn, is supported by a majority in directly elected National Parliaments

the European Parliament (directly elected) is a co-legislator, but of course it is dominated by the same political parties which express the Governments

it is a rather complex institutional structure, and for this reason people have very vague ideas about it - but democratic controls and legitimacy are there

the Commission is mainly an executive/administrative body : it is named by the Council, following a confidence vote by the European Parliament. Very much like a national administration It can be dismissed by the legislators (Council and European Parliament)

of course, since votes in Council on important matters (e.g. external policy, fiscal affairs) are still taken by unanimity, this means that decision-making is often ineffective and cumbersome, since any State can veto a decision

the solution is a more federalised EU, not a watered-down version of it

best


So what you are advocating is handing the EU ultimate power, wrecking the constitutions and political systems of dozens of major countries - and hoping that it will all work out.

And talking about the structures of various European bodies doesn't actually say anything about how bad the EU actually is, or answer how it has achieved anything positive during its term of existence. All the EU has done is grow.
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
So then why is United States of America the most powerful country on the planet?


Because they have a structural integrity to their size. Trying to recreate such a size with complete strangers will never work, but then again you probably believe in the Internationale
Original post by LibertyMan
Because they have a structural integrity to their size. Trying to recreate such a size with complete strangers will never work, but then again you probably believe in the Internationale


Yet here we are. Humanity is more connected and homogeneous than it has ever been.

It's not a belief but nation states are a thing that exist which are the result of cooperation from "complete strangers". That cooperation is currently strained in Spain with the internal illegal independence referendums going on. History

Go team Wobblies.
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by Trinculo
So what you are advocating is handing the EU ultimate power, wrecking the constitutions and political systems of dozens of major countries - and hoping that it will all work out.
the EU is wrecking nothing at all. States have joined, according to their respective constitutional systems, and no State is forced to have closer cooperation against its will. I am even told that one State is leaving (unless it eventually gets cold feet)

Original post by Trinculo

And talking about the structures of various European bodies doesn't actually say anything about how bad the EU actually is, or answer how it has achieved anything positive during its term of existence. All the EU has done is grow.
the EU is a huge advancement for its Member States. It has allowed Europe to play an important role in World negotiations (especially in the economic area) and has ensured peace and prosperity, even in the face of the worst economic crisis since WW II

Unfortunately, the EU still remains to be completed : in particular, foreign affairs and fiscal policies need to be brought under majority voting

best
Original post by ChaoticButterfly
Yet here we are. Humanity is more connected and homogeneous than it has ever been.

It's not a belief but nation states are a thing that exist which are the result of cooperation from "complete strangers". That cooperation is currently strained in Spain with the internal illegal independence referendums going on. History

Go team Wobblies.


I've never said anything about cooperation; cooperation is indeed good. But there is a difference between cooperation and a political union. For effective cooperation each cooperating unit needs to be comfortable with making changes to itself, like most nations are when separate. A small nation that cooperates with the right people and exports a rare service will be just as powerful and has just a high GDP per capita as America.
Reply 86
Original post by karl pilkington
yes so as I said she has dealt with that also there is no competitiveness shortfall. The remainers talk about damage to the economy but don't talk about the damage already done to our fishing industry or our export markets outside the EU
No. You said she had "guaranteed" the Nissan plant. It is no more "guaranteed" than it ever was.

You didn't mention fishing, so neither did I. It is an entirely different argument and not nearly as simple as "EU destroyed the UK fishing industry". There are many factors involved in the decline (which has been going on steadily since the early 1900s! ). Also noteworthy is that Norway's (who aren't in the EU) fishing industry has declined faster than the UK's, as has Spain's (who are often cited by Eurosceptics as a country that has benefitted from EU fishing policy to the UK's loss). A group of fisheries experts wrote to the gov't asking them to stop blaming the EU for the state of UK fishing as this approach would not address the actual reasons and thus fail to implement effective practices.

Still, not like Leavers to ignore the actual issues, is it?
(edited 6 years ago)
Original post by QE2
No. You said she had "guaranteed" the Nissan plant. It is no more "guaranteed" than it ever was.

You didn't mention fishing, so neither did I. It is an entirely different argument and not nearly as simple as "EU destroyed the UK fishing industry". There are many factors involved in the decline (which has been going on steadily since the early 1900s! ). Also noteworthy is that Norway's (who aren't in the EU) fishing industry has declined faster than the UK's, as has Spain's (who are often cited by Eurosceptics as a country that has benefitted from EU fishing policy to the UK's loss). A group of fisheries experts wrote to the gov't asking them to stop blaming the EU for the state of UK fishing as this approach would not address the actual reasons and thus fail to implement effective practices.

Still, not like Leavers to ignore the actual issues, is it?


Iceland's fishing industry has prospered most reasonable people agree that part of the decline in UK fishing is down to the EU.
Original post by mariachi
the EU is wrecking nothing at all. States have joined, according to their respective constitutional systems, and no State is forced to have closer cooperation against its will. I am even told that one State is leaving (unless it eventually gets cold feet)

the EU is a huge advancement for its Member States. It has allowed Europe to play an important role in World negotiations (especially in the economic area) and has ensured peace and prosperity, even in the face of the worst economic crisis since WW II

Unfortunately, the EU still remains to be completed : in particular, foreign affairs and fiscal policies need to be brought under majority voting

best


"No state is forced to have closer co-operation against its will"

That's a good one. Tell that to the Irish.

The EU just does what it wants, and with these baying hordes of cheerleaders - anyone who doesn't like what the EU has to offer is labelled an idiot or a racist. This makes the enormous leap of logic that the EU is always, always right. Which, if you ask the Greeks, Cypriots, Hungarians, Swedes, Danish, Norwegians - they aren't. Obviously, British people are the only ones who are racists and idiots for wanting out.
I mean, I would have voted Remain if I was able to vote. I still stand by that and I think the situation that's developed since have only strengthened that belief for me.

However, I think that now it's been voted on and concreted over - we have to get on with it if we want to remain credible and just. I do think that there are parts of the EU I've since come to dislike, elements of the Union's structure and governance and rhetoric, but I still think we're better within that Union.
China the next super power? have you seen the news? North Korea are the up and coming superpower. we should be aligning ourselves with them.
Original post by karl pilkington
Iceland's fishing industry has prospered most reasonable people agree that part of the decline in UK fishing is down to the EU.


who cares, fish smell. you want to know what else smells fishy? this brexit deal. am I right?
Original post by Trinculo


The EU just does what it wants
no

the EU does what its Member States and the European peoples want.

Legislative decision-making power in the EU is vested in democratically-elected Member States Governments (the Council) and in a democratically directly elected European Parliament. You should study the EU constitutional system

best
Na Im actually more glad by the day I voted Brexit. Every day is just another drama.
d bigg
Original post by mariachi
no

the EU does what its Member States and the European peoples want.

Legislative decision-making power in the EU is vested in democratically-elected Member States Governments (the Council) and in a democratically directly elected European Parliament. You should study the EU constitutional system

best


lol
the UK represents 16 per cent of EU GDP and 13 per cent of the population but only 3.6 per cent of EU officials.

Also majority voting is not democratic the EU is not a democratic organization
I think it would be something like 85% Remainer.

No second thoughts for me as a Leaver.
Original post by karl pilkington

the UK represents 16 per cent of EU GDP and 13 per cent of the population but only 3.6 per cent of EU officials.
EU officials don't vote on EU legislation
Original post by karl pilkington

Also majority voting is not democratic
I'll leave you the responsibility of such an inane statement
Original post by karl pilkington

the EU is not a democratic organization
please, brush up your knowledge of how the EU Council reaches decisions (unanimity, sinple majority, qualified majority) http://www.consilium.europa.eu/en/council-eu/voting-system/qualified-majority/

after that, we can have a look at the European Parliament's decision-making procedures and its powers as a co-legislator in many areas

best
Original post by mariachi
no

the EU does what its Member States and the European peoples want.

Legislative decision-making power in the EU is vested in democratically-elected Member States Governments (the Council) and in a democratically directly elected European Parliament. You should study the EU constitutional system

best


Lol. Just lol.

The EU isn't democratic in any sense. The will of member states never gets carried. Did the Greeks want the economic controls placed on them? Did the Irish want the treaty of Lisbon?

Most nations don't want most things enforced by the EU - but they have no democratic means to change them. It's well established that the European Law overules national statute - European Law that is not passed in national parliaments or presented at any party manifesto, or debated at any national chamber.
Original post by karl pilkington
Iceland's fishing industry has prospered most reasonable people agree that part of the decline in UK fishing is down to the EU.


Google "Cod Wars".

Iceland gained a 200 mile exclusion zone for their fishing fleet by threatening to withdraw from NATO, they got it thanks to their vital strategic position in the Cold War.
Reply 99
Original post by karl pilkington
Iceland's fishing industry has prospered most reasonable people agree that part of the decline in UK fishing is down to the EU.
Iceland's overall catch has declined, like other countries. It is only the big players who are thriving due to massive investment in new technology. Small operators are in decline. Just 10 firms now control more than half of all Iceland's fishing industry.

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