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Petition For Universal basic income Watch

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    hi i am posting here to inform users of this forum of a petition that is currently happening to have parliament discuss the possibility of a universal basic income.

    if you are interested in signing the petition it can be done here petition.parliament.uk/petitions/200045

    why?
    with job security at an all time low due to advances in technology and automation and poverty rising every year in the UK we need to start discussing better ways of sustaining everybody.

    who else thinks this would work?
    some of the most successful businessmen on the planet are opening supporting this idea names such as Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg and Richard Branson all support the idea of a basic income.

    Thank you for reading and considering supporting this petition if you would like to support more consider sharing the link with friends and family or on social media.
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    Well, I've signed it. I think the basic income is a potentially cracking idea. It's often seen as a lefty idea, but many on the libertarian right see a lot to like too. Especially in comparison to the woeful welfare state we have at present.
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    (Original post by UBI UK)
    hi i am posting here to inform users of this forum of a petition that is currently happening to have parliament discuss the possibility of a universal basic income.

    if you are interested in signing the petition it can be done here petition.parliament.uk/petitions/200045

    why?
    with job security at an all time low due to advances in technology and automation and poverty rising every year in the UK we need to start discussing better ways of sustaining everybody.

    who else thinks this would work?
    some of the most successful businessmen on the planet are opening supporting this idea names such as Elon Musk, Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg and Richard Branson all support the idea of a basic income.

    Thank you for reading and considering supporting this petition if you would like to support more consider sharing the link with friends and family or on social media.
    (Original post by Rinsed)
    Well, I've signed it. I think the basic income is a potentially cracking idea. It's often seen as a lefty idea, but many on the libertarian right see a lot to like too. Especially in comparison to the woeful welfare state we have at present.
    Even if it gets the required amount of signatures to be debated in parliament, it will just get voted down without hesitation. Don't you think the government has already thought about this by looking at how Finland does it? If they wanted to do it they would have done by now, I really don't see a government in austerity making massive cuts everywhere suddenly deciding to give everyone free money.
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    Why would anyone want this
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    (Original post by Glassapple)
    Even if it gets the required amount of signatures to be debated in parliament, it will just get voted down without hesitation. Don't you think the government has already thought about this by looking at how Finland does it? If they wanted to do it they would have done by now, I really don't see a government in austerity making massive cuts everywhere suddenly deciding to give everyone free money.
    while i do see your point there has never been a mass of public interest before and i would like to believe that if there is even a 1% chance of bringing an idea that many people feel has a good chance of improving the quality of life of thousands in our country i feel it is worth 5 minutes of someones time to contribute to that idea.
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    (Original post by Glassapple)
    Even if it gets the required amount of signatures to be debated in parliament, it will just get voted down without hesitation. Don't you think the government has already thought about this by looking at how Finland does it? If they wanted to do it they would have done by now, I really don't see a government in austerity making massive cuts everywhere suddenly deciding to give everyone free money.
    You say this, but it is being discussed on both sides of the house. I know there is a lot of sympathy within Labour ranks, and there are some fairly influential right-wing think-tanks who are on board too. It's not impossible it could make it's way into a party manifesto an election or two from now, say.

    I mean, yes, it would be a massive overhaul of the system so the inertial effects may be to great to be overcome. But it's definitely worth discussing, and worth showing support.

    It's also worth saying that one of the main advantages of the universality is the sheer simplicity, and lower associated costs. In reality for higher earners the cost would be recouped through tax, and you'd expect other benefits (unemployment, state pension, etc.) to be cut or eliminated as they were effectively made redundant. For instance, the means-tested unemployment benefit is actually pretty expensive just to run. All those meetings people are forced to attend at job centres aren't free. If we could avoid that but just giving it to everyone then that would be great. That's not to say it would be without cost, but it all depends how it's implemented.
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    (Original post by niteninja1)
    Why would anyone want this
    cos free monies lol

    Nah, it seen as a way of tackling loss of professions, both low skilled labour jobs and eventually even so called "middle class" professions without everyone having to resort to the bureaucratic nightmare of the welfare system. We're already seeing the beginnings of this with machines working factory conveyor belts and self scan checkouts. Employers aren't going to keep paying people to do jobs when machines will be able to do them for a fraction of the cost and less hassle. Lets be honest, we've almost all taken at least a few sick days, used sick days just to get out of work or had days where we are just unmotivated and don't get anything done. We have to give people breaks and we're not as consistent in our work at all times (As in treating everyone exactly the same in every scenario)

    Instead of having to means test people for things like unemployment, housing benefit, disability benefit and state pensions etc, which costs a surprising amount of money already, everyone would just receive a basic amount per month regardless of any other incomes
    You've removed the bureaucracy and costs involved in administering state aid while keeping the populace out of poverty. There could also be benefits for peoples heath and well being, if people knew that, at the very least every month they would have money to pay for food and shelter then you've removed the stresses of low paid precarious working conditions, work places injuries etc

    Its not a perfect solution by any stretch but eventually its a hurdle that all economies are going to have to navigate somehow. This is seen as a better solution than just leaving people to the wolves and possibly leading to a boom in underground economies
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    Moronic idea and quite frankly unaffordable. You can do the maths yourself, guaranteeing a payout to every single individual in the country which is enough to live decently on (even after substituting this for welfare) would be ridiculously expensive and leave a black hole in our public finances. The way to deal with automation is to do what humans have done ever since automation came about, retrain, reskill and move into new industries which inevitably arise (but which nobody can predict). Plenty of impracticalities involved too. What about say, disabled people who can't work and need more money to get around? Not to mention for a large portion of the population whose economic skills are on the lower end of the labour market, the incentive to work would die. If the economy transitions to a point where labour becomes redundant then this idea will make sense, but our economy is absolutely nowhere near that point despite recent advances in automation.
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    A universal income will come at some point anyway with the rise of automation, be it in 10 years or 40 years I think the trick will be when it should happen and i expect there will be much hardship before it comes into force as we would probably have 20% or something like that of people unemployed
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    (Original post by Sycatonne23)
    Moronic idea and quite frankly unaffordable. You can do the maths yourself, guaranteeing a payout to every single individual in the country which is enough to live decently on (even after substituting this for welfare) would be ridiculously expensive and leave a black hole in our public finances. The way to deal with automation is to do what humans have done ever since automation came about, retrain, reskill and move into new industries which inevitably arise (but which nobody can predict). Plenty of impracticalities involved too. What about say, disabled people who can't work and need more money to get around? Not to mention for a large portion of the population whose economic skills are on the lower end of the labour market, the incentive to work would die. If the economy transitions to a point where labour becomes redundant then this idea will make sense, but our economy is absolutely nowhere near that point despite recent advances in automation.
    I agree but I don't agree on the retraining, throughout history that has been the case.... moving from the field to the factory to the brain.

    What do we have left when the brain is replaced.....

    There's no way we can have full employment
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    (Original post by paul514)
    What do we have left when the brain is replaced.....

    There's no way we can have full employment
    We kind of have full employment now. There will always be some who are unemployable or unable to work. But the future is still bright. When I started work in the 90s there were jobs like secretaries, who typed up your documents for you. I worked in a civil engineering office and there were still pieces of equipment from the drafters who used to draw technical plans by hand. I also remember going into my mate's dads work in a big bank where there was a room of people who used to fix all the broken computers in the office by replacing microchips etc. Now all gone.

    Computers won't replace the brain any time soon. The types of AI we are now seeing have been around for at least 20 years. It is only now that we have found a use for them. And what is that? To target adverts on social media - if my feed is anything to go by, they are rubbish at what they are going. Hardly a rise of the machines.

    The one big change I can see is potentially autonomous driving, but the ethics of allowing self driving trucks loose on our roads, and the actions taken by the current workforce who see a threat to their livelihoods will all play into the mix before anything dramatic happens.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    We kind of have full employment now. There will always be some who are unemployable or unable to work. But the future is still bright. When I started work in the 90s there were jobs like secretaries, who typed up your documents for you. I worked in a civil engineering office and there were still pieces of equipment from the drafters who used to draw technical plans by hand. I also remember going into my mate's dads work in a big bank where there was a room of people who used to fix all the broken computers in the office by replacing microchips etc. Now all gone.

    Computers won't replace the brain any time soon. The types of AI we are now seeing have been around for at least 20 years. It is only now that we have found a use for them. And what is that? To target adverts on social media - if my feed is anything to go by, they are rubbish at what they are going. Hardly a rise of the machines.

    The one big change I can see is potentially autonomous driving, but the ethics of allowing self driving trucks loose on our roads, and the actions taken by the current workforce who see a threat to their livelihoods will all play into the mix before anything dramatic happens.
    We have good employment now because AI doesn't exist in the workplace yet.

    Also there is still 2 million unemployed, 5 million who want more hours, students aren't even included in those numbers and if we did have true full employment wages wouldn't be so low.
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    (Original post by paul514)
    We have good employment now because AI doesn't exist in the workplace yet.

    Also there is still 2 million unemployed, 5 million who want more hours, students aren't even included in those numbers and if we did have true full employment wages wouldn't be so low.
    AI isn't coming to our work place anytime soon despite what Mr Musk might say. Technologically it is woefully inadequate. Have you ever tried to hold a conversation with an automated speech recognition system? Nightmare!

    But full employment in this country does not mean high wages, simply because our economy no longer stops at our shores. We live in a world economy now and wages are determined largely by the world economy, not the UK one. When everyone has a job, you won't be paid £30k to work in Costa. There will just be fewer Costa cafes.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    AI isn't coming to our work place anytime soon despite what Mr Musk might say. Technologically it is woefully inadequate. Have you ever tried to hold a conversation with an automated speech recognition system? Nightmare!

    But full employment in this country does not mean high wages, simply because our economy no longer stops at our shores. We live in a world economy now and wages are determined largely by the world economy, not the UK one. When everyone has a job, you won't be paid £30k to work in Costa. There will just be fewer Costa cafes.
    I used to sell IVR's 😄

    Also using today as an example isn't great look back 40 years in computing and see what we have today and it's unfathomable.

    It's also worth noting that AI in its true sense isn't in use today as it's not developed yet.

    What people think AI is today is actually a program carrying out pre programmed tasks, it isn't doing it off it's own back which is what is being developed.

    It will happen
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    Where will the extra money come from?
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    Universal Basic Income will happen sooner or later but it is a terrible idea. At first glance you would think this benefits the majority of people because it is money for just existing which is all well and good but what are you going to do in your now 24/7 time? We do not need to hunt, we do not need to fight for survival and while that is true we don't do that now, we do have jobs that replicates that feeling of dedicating some of our time to ensure we have food on the table, a reason to go and a reason to live.

    Where will this go? We need the struggle of life to be happy and satisfied and if we do not have this I fear you will find there will be a new problem of the majority of people succumbing to severe mental and physical problems because they are no longer needed and that in itself will cause a huge rise in obesity, depression hell even children would be on the rise since that would be the only other thing that could possibly give us purpose.

    Universal Basic Income will unfortunately only benefit companies as it would be cheaper to give a flat sum to a money pot than employ everyone for not only their paychecks but also payments for leaves, illness, court etc.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    AI isn't coming to our work place anytime soon despite what Mr Musk might say. Technologically it is woefully inadequate. Have you ever tried to hold a conversation with an automated speech recognition system? Nightmare!
    I think you're underestimating the potential that AI technologies have. Machine learning has come a long way in recent years and there is a ton of R&D being done right now by some of the biggest tech companies in the world. The applications may be small right now but in 5-10 years we're definitely going to see some major upheaval.

    (Original post by Dean Fry)
    Where will this go? We need the struggle of life to be happy and satisfied and if we do not have this I fear you will find there will be a new problem of the majority of people succumbing to severe mental and physical problems because they are no longer needed and that in itself will cause a huge rise in obesity, depression hell even children would be on the rise since that would be the only other thing that could possibly give us purpose.
    Automation is going to lead to this problem regardless of whether we implement UBI or not. It's a problem our society will eventually need to solve, and the solution needs to be something better than what we've come up with so far. Moving to a service-based economy is not a trick we can repeat twice, and job creation only goes so far - even the gaping maw of pointless middle management positions has its limit.
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    The petition system to parliament is pointless, if you've ever watched the debates once they reach 100k they are the most ridiculous thing in politics. Barely even talk about the petition itself.
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    (Original post by Dean Fry)
    Universal Basic Income will happen sooner or later but it is a terrible idea. At first glance you would think this benefits the majority of people because it is money for just existing which is all well and good but what are you going to do in your now 24/7 time? We do not need to hunt, we do not need to fight for survival and while that is true we don't do that now, we do have jobs that replicates that feeling of dedicating some of our time to ensure we have food on the table, a reason to go and a reason to live.

    Where will this go? We need the struggle of life to be happy and satisfied and if we do not have this I fear you will find there will be a new problem of the majority of people succumbing to severe mental and physical problems because they are no longer needed and that in itself will cause a huge rise in obesity, depression hell even children would be on the rise since that would be the only other thing that could possibly give us purpose.

    Universal Basic Income will unfortunately only benefit companies as it would be cheaper to give a flat sum to a money pot than employ everyone for not only their paychecks but also payments for leaves, illness, court etc.
    I think the point is that it's a basic amount of money which would avoid destitution. So enough to live on, but you'd have to be pretty frugal. It's more or less the same idea as the state pension, which is, what, about £8k a year? I don't think many people would want to live on that little unless they had to, so people would still go out and work.

    One advantage may be that if they disliked their job, not that they would just stop working altogether, but they would feel they had a stop gap if they wanted to take a bit of time out to change careers or retrain or whatever. At present they may feel they had no option but to pump along with the grind. Labour market flexibility is a good thing.

    I have literally no idea why you think this will only benefit companies.
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    (Original post by Rinsed)
    I think the point is that it's a basic amount of money which would avoid destitution. So enough to live on, but you'd have to be pretty frugal. It's more or less the same idea as the state pension, which is, what, about £8k a year? I don't think many people would want to live on that little unless they had to, so people would still go out and work.

    One advantage may be that if they disliked their job, not that they would just stop working altogether, but they would feel they had a stop gap if they wanted to take a bit of time out to change careers or retrain or whatever. At present they may feel they had no option but to pump along with the grind. Labour market flexibility is a good thing.

    I have literally no idea why you think this will only benefit companies.
    I think you are misunderstanding, my point is that with automation and thus no need to employ people they will be creating a huge amount of unemployed people.

    If it was for the situation you described then that would be fantastic but there is a huge amount of jobs that realistically could be done by A.I, you don't think we need so much middle management in companies and that do you? Hell even truckers are starting to be replaced with A.I. Sooner or later and chances are it'll be within my lifetime companies will be able to replace most employees with A.I, sure not all employees will be unemployed but it will definitely affect the majority of people.

    The whole point of automation is so we do not need to do labour but the majority of peoples jobs are labour or management, do you see why this will cause problems?
 
 
 
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