Year 12s: what will be the first way you research your future options? >>

Music College vs. Uni

Hey, I hope it's ok for me to post this. I'm new round here, see. :smile:

I'm currently in year 12, but suddenly university doesn't seem so far away. My main instrument is the french horn and I'm pretty certain that I want to do a music degree, and hopefully follow up a career in music performance if I can. There are two questions I have:

One, does it look more academic to have a BMus from a conventional university than from a music college? For example, would it look better to have read music at Oxford or the Royal Academy? Or are they equal?

Two, I know a lot of the top places recommend ABRCM Grade V on a keyboard instrument. I don't have this level of competence and I was wondering if it'd still be worth applying to the top institutions without it - also, is there anyone else out there that managed this?

Thanks!

Reply 1

Pink*Guildhall

hmmm, there are pros and cons of both. i believe there have been a few threads in the past about this, but i'm too lazy to search for them.

the first question i think you should ask yourself is what you want to do with your degree. if you are convinced that the only career out there for you is to be the best horn soloist in the world then i would advise a conservatoire.
secondly, i would suggest you question what you enjoy most at the moment? would you prefer to spend all your time practising rather than going to school and learning other things? at a university you get to mix with people doing other subjects and you don't learn purely your instrument; which is essentially what a conservatoire is for.

i was torn for a fair while between uni and conservatoire. i choose uni and am not regretting it. however, i'm a fairly academic person and love writing essays as much as i love to practice. in terms of performance at uni, it really depends on where you choose as the courses vary, and what you make of it. i've turned things down this term as i know i haven't time to do everything. i feel like i'm getting a much broader musical education than my friends who're at conservatoire. however, i appreciate the fact that some of them don't want that - they purely want to play.

i guess i was lucky enough to go to a junior conservatoire and having had 6 years of competition and back-stabbing to be the best there, i figured that i needed a break from it. after uni, you can always go and do post-grad at a conservatoire, even if you haven't studied music at uni.

as for you question about keyboard skills, my uni requested grade V (i think - i applied a fair while ago now) and i know for certain that there are people in my year who have not got grade V. if they want you, they want you.

if you've any further questions, feel free to ask me. i'm sure some other people will add some gems of wisdom for you.

Reply 2

RoisinSinead

Thank you. I also like writing essays and such - but I am also fairly certain that I would prefer to be performance-based rather than, perhaps, composition based or other areas. My concern is, as you said, that the depth of musical education would be better at a good university. Obviously, if I got into a second-rate uni and a first-rate conservatoire or vice versa the choice would be clear. I think I'll just apply everywhere and have a look round...
Thanks for your point about the keyboard stuff. I've been really worried about that recently as I think it might be the difference between the uni down the road and the Academy! I hope you're right about that...maybe its not the mammoth issue I've built it up into.
Thanks again :smile:

Reply 3

Pink*Guildhall

yah, look at the courses that each uni offers. personally, i hate composition, and so i choose courses that were very light on that.
also, maybe you should take a look at the unis that offer lessons at a conservatoire, or have a link with a conservatoire.

Reply 4

*soph*

You need to have a look at the course content really, because some Uni courses contain a very small element of performance, yet others have quite a lot. Look into the second and third year course options, too. I decided not to apply for any of the Conservatoires because I wanted to concentrate on the academic side as well as performance, but also because I wanted to be in an environment with very different people, rather than just surrounded by very competitive musicians! The other thing to bear in mind is that you will be expected by some teachers to progress in your performance as if you were a conservatoire student. I'm at Birmingham Uni and we have lessons at the Birmingham Conservatoire. One of my friends got told by her teacher there that she expected her to put in the same effort as if she was at the Conservatoire; she just has the academic work from the Uni on top of that as well... Seems a little unfair, but don't automatically assume that Unis are second rate for music compared to Conservatoires. It just depends on what you want to focus on!

Bear in mind, though, that you don't have to make a decision now. You can look into both Uni and Conservatoire courses and apply to both. You may find that you 'click' with one place when you go for interviews/open days etc!

Reply 5

RoisinSinead

Thank you *soph*. Sorry for my late reply..
What instrument do you play, or do you sing?

Reply 6

olivia_archaeology

Hey, im Olivia's sister applying to study Music!
I can't decide between uni and conservatoire if anyone can give me any advice!
I've done lots of research but I can't decide!
Have been told it's probably a good idea to get a proper degree even though music colleges give out degrees that are nearly as academic as those from universities.
Have chosen unis like Manchester, Kings, Birmingham all with links to music colleges. My main worry is that if i got to university I won't have worked as hard on my instrument as I would have at conservatoire, so I might not be good enough to go a post grad at a music college?! Also some uni's don't offer very many tuition hours and I wonder what it would be like if you had a post grad teaching at like Kings, very good though I'm sure! I need to find out!
Also I love playing(violin), probably a bit more than the academic side, althought I have only got offers from Birmingham conservatoire and hopefully Trinity(reserve) so not the top colleges! Also I'm thinking as it is so competitive (being a musician) perhaps it is safer to get a degree from uni?
Sorry so many questions!
Any help would be very much appreciated!!

Reply 7

country_bumpkin

Personally I wouldn't worry too much about the reputability of where you go to study. I spent AGES trying to decide between conservatoire education or university, I'm now at the university of surrey and I'm glad I picked it as I'm really happy here.
Truth be told, those who study at conservatoires do seem to get the best jobs, I was looking at some of my lecturers credentials the other day and they've ALL been to a music college at some point, but not neccessarily at undergraduate level, more commonly they've studied a good uni like York and then gone on to do a postgrad at RWCMD or somewhere. I think if you go down this route then you get the best of both worlds, a good broad university education and a more specific conservatoire education.
I didn't plan to do anything much past undergrad level other than a PGCE or something but I can see the benefits of a postgrad degree at a good conservatoire and its definitely something I want to look into.

In response to olivia's post, me and my mate Ellen both started uni this year, she's at the royal college in london, I'm at an actual uni.
I get about 11 hours of lectures a week (and then about 8 hours of rehearsals on top of that), Ellen only gets 3 hours of lectures per week at RCM. I get 15 hours of tuition on my main instrument over the year (1hr per week) Ellen gets 20 I think, but is actively encouraged to take up a second instrument and will receive subsidised tuition on that, (don't quote me on that!!) However at surrey we have to take compulsory piano lessons in the first year with emphasis on accompanying others, improvising an accompaniment etc (music teaching skills it reckons) whereas El doesn't have any of that.
She literally spends all her time practising (they have practice rooms in their halls of res! how cool!!) and does 3-4 hours a day. I do 1-2!! But should be doing waaay more, I just haven't quite got into the swing of things just yet!

Reply 8

*soph*

RoisinSinead

Thank you *soph*. Sorry for my late reply..
What instrument do you play, or do you sing?

Piano's my first study and flute my second. I do sing as well, but mainly just in the Uni choir and that's it.

Thought any more about where you're likely to apply to?

olivia_archaeology

Have chosen unis like Manchester, Kings, Birmingham all with links to music colleges. My main worry is that if i got to university I won't have worked as hard on my instrument as I would have at conservatoire, so I might not be good enough to go a post grad at a music college?! Also some uni's don't offer very many tuition hours and I wonder what it would be like if you had a post grad teaching at like Kings, very good though I'm sure! I need to find out!

There seems to be this huge misconception that Music at University is a watered down version of Music at a Conservatoire. It isn't. They are two totally different experiences. If you go to a Conservatoire, you concentrate on performance, but at University, you study music as a whole. For example, a first year BMus student at Birmingham studies Context (Romantic and twentieth century music in the first year), musical analysis, paper and studio composition, techniques of musical perception (writing Bach chorales, Schubert song, string quartets) and performance. You get 20 hours of performance lessons in the first year, which you usually split between two instruments. This probably isn't as much as is offered by a Conservatoire, but to me, the work that you put in outside these lessons is what really makes the difference. If you want to do a post-grad at a music college, you need to put the work in in the meantime. There's no reason why you can't get into a music college with a university degree. It really depends on what you want to do for the next three years - exclusive performance, or performance and academic study?

Reply 9

The_Lonely_Goatherd

Hi Olivia's sister!

I applied for both conservatoires and unis and thought I would share my few pearls of wisdom! :biggrin:

Firstly, degrees from music colleges are NOT on the same academic level as uni degrees. In terms of recognition and respect in the music world, they are on the same level as academic degrees, but there are fewer lectures, fewer essays and (in comparison) not a lot of academia in the music college degrees. If you are interested in both the history and performance/composition aspects, it might be better to do a university degree that has a strong practical element to it, there are quite a few of them around.

Secondly, you needn't worry about not being good enough to do a postgrad at a music college if you choose to do an undergraduate uni degree. Like you said, the universities you've chosen are linked to music colleges and as long as you have gone to a good uni (all the three you've mentioned are regarded as such), there is nothing to stop you doing a postgrad at a music college, providing you've got the talent, of course! :smile:

My piano tutor was quite dubious about me studying with a postgrad, but you'd have to ask someone at Kings what it's like. In terms with tuition hours, the problem with a place like Kings is that they pretty much organise the teaching for you and give you a fixed amount of time each week. It might be in your interest to look into unis that are more flexible and allow you to arrange your own instrumental tutors. That way you can have as many or few lessons as you like (budget permitting, some unis can be very tight-fisted!)!

The music world can be a snobby place when it comes to the conservatoire/uni you studied at, but at the end of the day, if you're a working performer, you will be chosen on the talent you display at job auditions, not the institution you studied at! The most important thing is that you are happy during those 3/4 years you are studying. There's no point being miserable just to get a "prestigious" degree. Equally there's no point being at a uni if you all want to do is play all day and perfect your instrumental talents at a music college :smile:

Hope that's helped! :smile:

Reply 10

olivia_archaeology

Thank you so much! It's really helpful to hear different people's views.
Where did you end up studying?

I've still got a while to decide on the uni verse conservatoire. At the moment I'm think if I study at uni, Manchester will be first choice. Hopefully would be able to get a RNCM professor and living would be less expensive than london! If i do a degree I just realise I will have to keep focussed andfit in the time to practice. You mention degrees with a strong performance element, which would you consider these to be?

But then i've still got conservatoire in my mind as I would like to focus on playing, but then again I'd also like to keep the academic side going because I do enjoy it. I'd love to end up as a performer but I realise it is so tough and competitive. Do u have any idea how many lectures/ academic teaching hours there are at a conservatoire? Or the academic percentage of the degree against performance, if that makes any sense?
I've know that at the end of the day it doesn't matter which conservatoire you've been to, all that matters is the way you play and your talent.
Thanks for all the advice and help! :smile:

Reply 11

Pink*Guildhall

Manchester certainly has a fabulous course, and if you're really still unsure, then you can always apply for the joint course with the RNCM which combines both the academic degree and the performance degree.
Other places like Holloway and Kings in London offer lessons at College and Academy, although from what I've heard, you get lessons but not the performance opportunity.

I would recommend having a look at the course break-downs of various universities and conservatoires. These should be easily accessibly on the websites. These'll tell you the degrees that have strong performance elements, and which conservatoires offer what in terms of academia.

There are a number of people on my academic course who have the intention of doing a performance post-grad at a conservatoire somewhere. It's not hard to fit in the time to practice if you want to make the time. And certainly, I'm not finding it difficult to keep focussed.

Reply 12

tinkerbellejess

I chose to study at a university so that I have a more rounded uni education, although I am considering a postgrad course at the RAM (If I can afford it) when I graduate next year. I'm lucky though, my course has quite a strong performing element to it. (ie, not just one performance module)

Reply 13

The_Lonely_Goatherd

Heya! Sorry for the delayed reply, I haven't been able to log on since I last posted!

I've ended up at Oxford (only just though, damn A2 French nearly ruined it all, lol!), which is a hugely academic degree but has quite a bit of extra-curricular performance. But in terms of the overall course, it's only 1/8 (one-eighth) of the course! :O

Like someone else has said, if you really can't decide between the two, you can go for the Joint Course at Manchester, though it's competitive to get onto and apparently you have no life because you're studying/practising all the time! (That's what I've heard from past students anyway!)

I didn't really apply anywhere that has a particularly strong performance element so I don't know from personal experience, but there are plenty of universities that offer specific Performance degrees (e.g. Brunel) and I've heard that York has a large practical element to it, so it might be worth investigating that. As someone else has said, check the individual course websites for the unis/conservatoires you're interested in: somewhere on each site should be a (semi)-detailed breakdown of the course, showing you the exact modules you can take each year.

At conservatoires, about 50% of your entire course is based on your recitals/ensemble work/conducting/composing, etc. The other 50% is made up of small academic units, outreach courses, etc. because conservatoires have to offer some kind of academic course, otherwise they cannot have degree status. The thing is, the academia here is less in-depth and your essays will be much shorter and your knowledge of history will be much broader, but less in-depth. Plus at universities, you can study all kinds of weird and wonderful things (I'm currently learning about Women Composers!) which you can't always do at conservatoires.

Some conservatoires are linked to universities (e.g. RAM with KCL) and you can take some of their academic units. Conservatoires have more scope for studying abroad, because they have links to more institutions than unis, so if that's something you're interested in, it's worth considering.

It would be worth you getting your instrumental/school teacher's opinions and seeing what they think. Don't take it as gospel or anything, but it would be an eye-opener for you to hear what people who know about your performing ability think. I was heavily advised against seriously considering conservatoires by my teachers (though I was never seriously considering it in the first place!) and they were right: I wouldn't have been able to hack the hours of practise and the competition :smile:

olivia_archaeology