Ronnie Biggs Watch

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Vixen
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#61
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#61
(Original post by NDGAARONDI)
It's Venables and Thompson I thought
Lol, thats my fault. I knew their names but as soon as I had Venables in my head Terry also came out - for obvious reasons :rolleyes:
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Vixen
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#62
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#62
(Original post by Howard)
The crime itself wasn't worse...........bludgeon an adult to death or stone a 6 year old to death........hum.......tough choices!

However, rightfully or wrongfully, Venables and Terry had not (legally speaking) reached the age of responsibility......."forgive them Lord for they know not what they do".........whereas Biggs, had.
That makes no difference in my eyes. Ten or not they led that two year old away from his mother, coaxed him, bought him sweets, made him trust them then stoned him and tortured him. They certainly did know what they were doing. It would take two fairly aware boys to do that. Yes, Biggs knew what he was doing also but he had a big big gain from his crime. Venables and Thompson did it because they are evil. They do not deserve a new life. A lifetime in prisonment is almost too good for them.
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Howard
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#63
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(Original post by VixenIW)
That makes no difference in my eyes. Ten or not they led that two year old away from his mother, coaxed him, bought him sweets, made him trust them then stoned him and tortured him. They certainly did know what they were doing. It would take two fairly aware boys to do that. Yes, Biggs knew what he was doing also but he had a big big gain from his crime. Venables and Thompson did it because they are evil. They do not deserve a new life. A lifetime in prisonment is almost too good for them.
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. Still, as neither of us are legislators able to make new law, or members of the judiciary able to apply it, who cares what "in our eyes" is right or wrong?
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Vixen
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#64
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#64
(Original post by Howard)
I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. Still, as neither of us are legislators able to make new law, or members of the judiciary able to apply it, who cares what "in our eyes" is right or wrong?
Yar...thats depressingly true Still, it makes me feel better coming on here and sounding off about it
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sarah101
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#65
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(Original post by bratcat)
Links? Sources? Have you been conducting extensive research on this woman?

'A very strange woman' who has brought up a daughter of her own.

Or don't you believe in redemption?
I personally find the idea of someone trying to kill their own friends rather strange, maybe you don't. Perhaps she's not strange anymore though so if you like, I'll change my statement - "a very strange girl". I know she had a daughter, but I don't know what that has to do with it. Bringing up a child doesn't necessarily redeem anyone, or make them any less strange!

If you want a link, here's one, or you could just google "Mary Bell".

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notoriou...l/index_1.html
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RieLouise
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#66
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(Original post by sarah101)
I personally find the idea of someone trying to kill their own friends rather strange, maybe you don't.
Where did you get that from? Where did I state that? In fact, 'strange' in this case is rather an understatemet.

But you stated: (in post 20)'I always found the case of Mary Bell interesting. If anone could be an example of pure evil in a human being, it's her. She was just incredibly cruel from a very young age, constantly attacking and trying to harm even her friends. A very strange woman.'

Perhaps she's not strange anymore though so if you like, I'll change my statement - "a very strange girl".
A very strange girl who has propbaly changed a great deal. People do, you know. YOU changed between the ages of 10-18, didn't you? Well, I'd be damned worried if you hadn't.

I know she had a daughter, but I don't know what that has to do with it. Bringing up a child doesn't necessarily redeem anyone, or make them any less strange!
Our justice system is based on the fact that redemption is possible for almost everybody. If the daughter is happy. healthy, well-grought up then it is my belief that Mary Bell has indeed been redeemed

If you want a link, here's one, or you could just google "Mary Bell".
Thanks, but as this a student forum I'd rather have the names of the academic works you used to support your arquments.

Thanks but no thanks. As I said I'd prefer academic sources. Try reading
[url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805060685/qid=1094729599/sr=8-1/ref=pd_cps_1/103-1749714-8719033?v=glance&s=books&n=50784 6[url/]

Cries Unheard: Why Children Kill : The Story of Mary Bell
by Gitta Sereny
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frost105
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#67
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(Original post by bratcat)
A very strange girl who has propbaly changed a great deal. People do, you know. YOU changed between the ages of 10-18, didn't you? Well, I'd be damned worried if you hadn't.

[QUOTE/]I know she had a daughter, but I don't know what that has to do with it. Bringing up a child doesn't necessarily redeem anyone, or make them any less strange!
Our justice system is based on the fact that redemption is possible for almost everybody. If the daughter is happy. healthy, well-grought up then it is my belief that Mary Bell has indeed been redeemed

If you want a link, here's one, or you could just google "Mary Bell".[QUOTE/]

Thanks, but as this a student forum I'd rather have the names of the academic works you used to support your arquments.



Thanks but no thanks. As I said I'd prefer academic sources. Try reading
[url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0805060685/qid=1094729599/sr=8-1/ref=pd_cps_1/103-1749714-8719033?v=glance&s=books&n=50784 6[url/]

Cries Unheard: Why Children Kill : The Story of Mary Bell
by Gitta Sereny

I've read both of those books and thought they were excellent. It really highlighted how the system has no idea how to deal with very young offenders.
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sarah101
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#68
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(Original post by bratcat)
A very strange girl who has propbaly changed a great deal. People do, you know. YOU changed between the ages of 10-18, didn't you? Well, I'd be damned worried if you hadn't.
Yes, I did. Which is why I agreed "perhaps she's not strange anymore". I apologise if I somehow offended you, I'm not quite sure how, but you certainly seem rather annoyed. Either that or you just really enjoy picking holes.

I disagree that having a happy child redeems somebody. So a serial killer/rapist is alright as long as they bring up their own children well? Of course it's possible to change, I'm not denying that, but I don't think having a child really proves anything.
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sarah101
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#69
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(Original post by bratcat)
Thanks, but as this a student forum I'd rather have the names of the academic works you used to support your arquments.

What's that all about? So I need to have read academic works to conclude that a child killer is strange and evil?
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RieLouise
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#70
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(Original post by frost105)
Our justice system is based on the fact that redemption is possible for almost everybody. If the daughter is happy. healthy, well-grought up then it is my belief that Mary Bell has indeed been redeemed




I've read both of those books and thought they were excellent. It really highlighted how the system has no idea how to deal with very young offenders.
You should try Gita Sereny's Albert Speer: His Battle for Truth about the Nazi régime's armaments minister who was imprisoned at the Nuremberg Trials but released in the late '70s.

I believe Sereny is a genuine truth seeker. She is prepared to look into the face of aspects of human nature that many of us are too emotionally cowardly to even glance at. She was accused of embarking on the Mary Bell project simply for financial gain but, given that she was a successful academic and writer before the publication of Cries Unheard: Why Children Kill: The Story of Mary Bell this seems highly unlikely.
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RieLouise
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#71
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(Original post by sarah101)
Yes, I did. Which is why I agreed "perhaps she's not strange anymore". I apologise if I somehow offended you, I'm not quite sure how, but you certainly seem rather annoyed. Either that or you just really enjoy picking holes.
You didn't offend me in the least. I was challenging what I consider to be your unfounded assumptions.

I disagree that having a happy child redeems somebody. So a serial killer/rapist is alright as long as they bring up their own children well? Of course it's possible to change, I'm not denying that, but I don't think having a child really proves anything.
But you used the present tense. You stated: 'If anyone could be an example of pure evil in a human being, it's her.' This implies that the 'evil' in Mary Bell is permanent, that whatever she has done or does in the future, she will never be redeemed. And, if she is 'evil incarnate' then why hasn't she harmed her daughter. Why did her daughter have no idea of her mother's past?

Aditionally, I don't think you can compare the actions of a child to the actions of an adult serial killer or rapist.
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Chubb
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#72
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Everyone has to serve their punishment even if they ran away like a coward, Also lets not forget that he only came back for medical treatment.
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Vixen
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#73
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#73
(Original post by Chubb)
Everyone has to serve their punishment even if they ran away like a coward, Also lets not forget that he only came back for medical treatment.
And he has clearly got what he wanted. Like I said previously wouldnt a more affective punishment be to make him try to survive penniless in Britain? He ran away from jail because he didnt want to serve his punishment then came back to escape a penniless existence which he didnt want to live....
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sarah101
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#74
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(Original post by bratcat)
But you used the present tense. You stated: 'If anyone could be an example of pure evil in a human being, it's her.' This implies that the 'evil' in Mary Bell is permanent.
I know. I corrected this in reply to your first post. Remember? And if you think I didn't, well I meant to, so sorry if this didn't come across.

Aditionally, I don't think you can compare the actions of a child to the actions of an adult serial killer or rapist.
I disagree. You could perhaps say they have slightly less responsibility, but not that the actions don't compare - it's still murder, and she was old enough to know what she was doing.

I will read the book you suggested though, someone else on this board recommended it to me the other day too.
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