Catalan referendum: Catalonia has 'won right to statehood'

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MrDystopia
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Catalan leader Carles Puigdemont says the region has won the right to statehood following Sunday's contentious referendum which was marred by violence.

He said the door had been opened to a unilateral declaration of independence.

Hundreds of people were injured as Spanish police used force to try to block voting.

The Spanish government had pledged to stop a poll that was declared illegal by the country's constitutional court.

Police officers prevented some people from voting, and seized ballot papers and boxes at polling stations.

"We have won the right to have an independent state in the form of a republic," said Mr Puigdemont in a televised address flanked by other senior Catalan leaders.

Earlier, as voting ended, Spanish Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy said Catalans had been fooled into taking part in an illegal vote. He called it a "mockery" of democracy.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-41463719

Given the violence we've already seen, I can't see a perceived victory for independence stopping that..
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Stalin
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I wonder how different the Western media's coverage would have been had this happened in China or Russia...

Not only that, but, to the best of my knowledge, the EU, the US, Germany, France, Portugal, etc have not yet commented on the issue.
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MrDystopia
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(Original post by Stalin)
I wonder how the different the Western media's coverage would have been had this happened in China or Russia...

Not only that, but, to the best of my knowledge, the EU, the US, Germany, France, Portugal, etc have not yet commented on the issue.
The EU as a body haven't, but individuals such as Jean-Claude Juncker have.

On 14 September, the President of the European Commission, Jean-Claude Juncker, said that the EU "would follow and respect the rulings of the Spanish constitutional court and parliament."[73] Further, while the EU would respect the choice if a “yes” for Catalan independence were to come to pass, Juncker stated that Catalonia could not become an EU member the day after the vote.

Essentially a non-answer. They'll respect a Yes vote, but respect the Spanish constitutional court/Parliament rulings...both of which deem the referendum illegal, and will strike down any declaration of independence as illegal too...so nothing of substance really. I suspect they'll come out and condemn the violence, and just call for unity now the referendum has taken place. Same as any other leader I think.
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James.Carnell
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(Original post by Stalin)
I wonder how the different the Western media's coverage would have been had this happened in China or Russia...

Not only that, but, to the best of my knowledge, the EU, the US, Germany, France, Portugal, etc have not yet commented on the issue.
They would be criticising the governments of China and Russia to the max. Saying they are infringing on human rights. Saying give power to the people. The western media is garbage, trump has it right that its fake news.
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James.Carnell
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(Original post by Mathemagicien)
Strongly condemn it if it were, say, a region in danger of ceding to Russia. Strongly condemn the government if it were a region wanting to cede from China.

But Spain is one of our own. A precedent of independence for regions would be a dangerous and intolerable one to many countries in the EU - France, Belgium, Italy, to name a few - so the EU as a whole must continue to be anti-independence, because the EU as a whole looks out for the governments of its nations, not its peoples.
So the west are hypocrites, basically.
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dandorr22
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London should follow and declare our own independence from the UK. Just like Catalonia, the rest of the UK will be on its knees if it was not for the greater london region and yet the rest of the country despise us.
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Rakas21
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(Original post by James.Carnell)
They would be criticising the governments of China and Russia to the max. Saying they are infringing on human rights. Saying give power to the people. The western media is garbage, trump has it right that its fake news.
Nothing garbage about it.

A region wanting to enter the Russian sphere is not in our self interest (Russia cannot be trusted, is corrupt and is not a massive fan of the market). Catalonia (a rich autonomous market democracy) wanting independence is not really a problem.

(Original post by dandorr22)
London should follow and declare our own independence from the UK. Just like Catalonia, the rest of the UK will be on its knees if it was not for the greater london region and yet the rest of the country despise us.
While London is one of the few cities to run a current account surplus and does bump our GDP per capita figures up, it actually only contributes about 20-25% of UK GDP so actually even without London we'd be a very rich country.

Obviously there would be significant issues such as most of our fastest rail lines headed towards London for example whereas a rump UK would have to gear things elsewhere.
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ChaoticButterfly
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Image


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ChaoticButterfly
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(Original post by Mathemagicien)
Strongly condemn it if it were, say, a region in danger of ceding to Russia. Strongly condemn the government if it were a region wanting to cede from China.

But Spain is one of our own. A precedent of independence for regions would be a dangerous and intolerable one to many countries in the EU - France, Belgium, Italy, to name a few - so the EU as a whole must continue to be anti-independence, because the EU as a whole looks out for the governments of its nations, not its peoples.
The EU is also not supposed to allow Nations who use military force on their own population to be part of the club. As **** as the EU often is there is liberalism built into it, it is supposed to protect individual rights, not just just the interest of the states.
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L i b
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(Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
The EU is also not supposed to allow Nations who use military force on their own population to be part of the club.
I'm not sure what half-digested titbit of nonsense you've read to give you that impression, but it's absolute claptrap.

Most states have provision for the armed forces to assist the civil authorities if needed. But significantly, many parts of continental Europe do not have as clear a delineation of military and civil authority as we do in the UK. Even here, however, we do use the military to support policing activities: most notably in modern times in Operation Banner in Northern Ireland.

Gendarmerie-type units are common in the EU, where they are partly military but charged with civilian policing. The Spanish Guardia Civil are extensively involved in routine civilian policing across Spain.
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ThatOldGuy
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The referendum wasn't legal and, in fact, cannot be legal as the EU Convention on Human Rights, Article 10 says:

Article 10 – Freedom of expression
1. Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers. This article shall not prevent States from requiring the licensing of broadcasting, television or cinema enterprises.
2. The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
As this referendum was on independence and territorial integrity, there is no right to freedom of expression or information in this case. Quite simply, Spain was perfectly allowed to send jackbooted thugs in to confiscate ballot boxes, drag women out by hair and hurt hundreds of people with rubber bullets because they were voting on independence.

What is going to happen about this referendum is:

Nothing. The EU won't condemn the violence. Spain won't allow a legal referendum to be conducted and the legitimacy of this referendum will be questioned. And the EU has a very good reason for doing so.

Spain is pro-EU. They are also incredibly nationalistic and if the EU condemned this, public opinion in Spain would quickly turn against the EU. They will not allow that to happen right now, so Spain has a blank pass for these sorts of things. So while I applaud the Catalan people for their courage, it won't come to anything unless massive condemnation against the EU comes about.
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ThatOldGuy
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Called it:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7978386.html

The EU is basically saying that Catalan has to arrange a referendum on independence based on the Spanish constitution, which specifically prevents Spain being split up.

So they're saying, "Spain has the right to send in jackbooted thugs if you question the legitimacy of their government."
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Manitude
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As I understand it, the EU (and many other countries) are taking the very diplomatic line of saying that this is an internal issue and that the Spanish constitution should be respected. The constitution seems to ban any votes on independence, effectively making it impossible for Catalonia/Navarre/Basque to gain independence through democratic means if they decide they want to do this. There is clearly strong support for a referendum in Catalonia and it seems that overwhelmingly, the people who voted did so in favour of independence.

Now the Spanish government came down hard on anyone trying to vote. As I see if, if there was a majority of people in Catalonia who wanted to remain part of Spain then the government wouldn't mind people voting in this referendum, because it would demonstrate that really the people there are happy enough with the status quo. If the government was afraid that the result wouldn't go their way, then it would make some sort of sense to try and stop it happening. The severity of the response and violence of the Spanish police (even going so far as attacking the firefighters who tried to protect the civilians) is not something one expects to see in a modern European country. Attacking voters to intimidate them into not voting is the kind of thing you see in banana republics or failed states, not the 14th richest country in the world.
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yudothis
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Shame on Spain.

Then again the country has a history of fascism.
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username2950448
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(Original post by Stalin)
I wonder how the different the Western media's coverage would have been had this happened in China or Russia...

Not only that, but, to the best of my knowledge, the EU, the US, Germany, France, Portugal, etc have not yet commented on the issue.
PRSOM.

Compare the coverage of Crimea's referendum to Catalonia's referendum...
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username3482522
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(Original post by MrDystopia)
He called it a "mockery" of democracy.
:rofl::rofl::rofl:

Spoiler:
Show

I suppose democracy is only valid when it goes the way you want it to go.
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Stalin
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(Original post by Palmyra)
PRSOM.

Compare the coverage of Crimea's referendum to Catalonia's referendum...
Western democracy, human rights and freedom of expression - the hypocrisy is astonishing.

I expect the Western media to barely mention the referendum in Catalonia this week and instead spend the next week covering the massacre in Las Vegas.
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username2950448
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(Original post by Stalin)
Western democracy, human rights and freedom of expression - the hypocrisy is astonishing.

I expect the Western media to barely mention the referendum in Catalonia this week and instead spend the next week covering the massacre in Las Vegas.
On the one hand they call for sanctions and bans on Iran and North Korea for developing weapons and being dictatorships, and on the other they turn a blind eye to Israel's sole possession of WMD in the ME and arm Turkey and the autocratic Saudi regime.

The hypocrisy and false rhetoric has always been there, it is just now that Trump is in office that the facade is clearer than ever.
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ChaoticButterfly
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May as well just letting ****ing Erdogan in the EU club.
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generallee
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This tells you all you need to know about the European Union.

It is fundamentally not just undemocratic, but ANTI democratic. A brave people tries to express its wishes in a peaceful democratic fashion, and the government sends in the jackbooted thugs to prevent it by force.

The EU doesn't just not condemn this, in itself shameful they actually approve of the fascist actions of he Guardia Civil. (Born out of fascism under Franco by the way).

The Hungarians don't want to forced to take Muslim so called refugees. Can't be allowed. We want to leave their club, give us a punishment beating even if it hurts them too. The Greeks don't want the misery of austerity. Can't be allowed. The Catalans want freedom. Send in the goons.

I'd love to hear the TSR Remoaner's talking about the the "European ideal" and EU "democracy" on this thread. They are conspicuous by their deafening silence.
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