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      (Original post by God Almighty)
      Not necessarily. That’s optimistic wishful thinking and doesn’t really address the reality that an unauthorised referendum in any part of Britain would be stopped by the police.
      Sure it would, but in Britain, they wouldn't have been forced to go down that route.
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      (Original post by Mathemagicien)
      Sure it would, but in Britain, they wouldn't have been forced to go down that route.
      You do not and cannot know that. There were London riots for goodness sake, which anyone would have said is something that wouldn’t happen in Britain.
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      (Original post by 27FT)
      All revolutions are illegal. That's the whole point of a revolution in fact, people are dissatisfied with the law, constitution and how its treating them so they rebel. You think the Brits wanted America to become independent? Americans opposed the institution regardless
      Excellently put. Legal regimes are often if not usually based on acts of lawbreaking.
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      (Original post by Drewski)
      The only issue with that is the vote hasn't been all that clear. There have been no official results yet, but while its estimated to have returned a 90% out verdict, the turnout is reportedly low, at around 42%. It doesn't help their credibility.
      Likewise it can't be said the vote was carried out under fair democratic conditions when you have militarised police beating people up and blocking people from voting. Considering this factor the turnout is more impressive.
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      (Original post by Carbon Dioxide)
      So what you're trying to say is that regions should just be able to walk out of the nations they are currently a part of, even if it infringes the constitution? Under this logic, should "freemen-on-the-land"/"sovereign citizens" be deemed to be independent nation-states if a majority votes for it? Your logic leaves much to be desired.
      Couldn’t have said it better myself. You can’t just have people and regions doing everything willy nilly without consent of the governing state and in flagrant defiance of the law.
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      This could all have been avoided if Rajoy and Co. had been willing to accept some form of independence referendum - and it's worth pointing out that Catalan public opinion is pretty even split, it would be far from a certainty that the separatists would win a fair referendum.
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      (Original post by anarchism101)
      This could all have been avoided if Rajoy and Co. had been willing to accept some form of independence referendum - and it's worth pointing out that Catalan public opinion is pretty even split, it would be far from a certainty that the separatists would win a fair referendum.
      They probably would win now though.
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      (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
      They probably would win now though.
      Oh, I agree. Madrid has crossed the Rubicon now, unless the Rajoy government suddenly collapses in the next fortnight or so.
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      (Original post by anarchism101)
      Oh, I agree. Madrid has crossed the Rubicon now, unless the Rajoy government suddenly collapses in the next fortnight or so.
      I spotted some CNT flags in the crowds in the news today. If only anarcho-syndicalism were a strong social force again as apposed to just being a fringe of flag wavers. *sigh*
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      (Original post by Chaotic Butterfly)
      They probably would win now though.
      (Original post by anachrism101)
      Oh, I agree. Madrid has crossed the Rubicon now, unless the Rajoy government suddenly collapses in the next fortnight or so
      Er, no, they wouldn't win now. There's no evidence whatsoever that this has caused nationalist Catalans to convert to separatists and therefore swing public opinion in favour of independence.
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      (Original post by 27FT)
      All revolutions are illegal. That's the whole point of a revolution in fact, people are dissatisfied with the law, constitution and how its treating them so they rebel. You think the Brits wanted America to become independent? Americans opposed the institution regardless
      The US War for Independence is a bad example, somewhat. According to John Adams, only around a third of Colonialists positively supported American independence. It was an undemocratic exercise. The problem with the Catalan referendum, its being outside the law, is that it lacks legitimacy. Not everyone participated and we don't know that the ballots were securely managed. It is important to keep everything legal and in line with the Spanish constitution because that is the only way the Catalans will secure a democratic legitimate independence, without tumult.
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      (Original post by yudothis)
      So what?

      The whole point is that they don't want to be a part of Spain, i.e. Spanish law can go **** itself.

      And with regards to international law, well I find it silly if someone thinks "international" law says area x of country y cannot leave y. Sure, countries can refuse to accept the existence of Catalonia as a country, but that won't stop them being independent of Spain, as well as being silly. The "West" loves democracy doesn't it, so if the region wants to do something and does it democratically, suddenly that has no meaning?
      Not really. You see, the point of law is that it is an exercise of force. Politics exists within the lawful structures that the state creates. Catalan nationalists might have little regard for the law - but that puts them outside of normal politics in a liberal, democratic state.

      Nor are illegal secessionist referendums democratic in any meaningful sense. A democracy does not and cannot exist outside of the structure of accepted rules and laws: without that, it is meaningless. In this case, the law quite clearly ascribes these constitutional issues to a Spanish demos. This, if anything, was a poor parody of democracy, guest-starring some truncheon-happy fools from the Spanish national police forces.

      (Original post by anarchism101)
      This could all have been avoided if Rajoy and Co. had been willing to accept some form of independence referendum - and it's worth pointing out that Catalan public opinion is pretty even split, it would be far from a certainty that the separatists would win a fair referendum.
      Maybe, but the Spanish Government is entirely within its rights to say no to that. I can certainly see their logic: once secessionism starts to be accepted, it becomes a chip with which to blackmail a central government. Allow a political entity absolute autonomy in choosing its own powers, and soon any other authority disappears.
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      (Original post by Notorious_B.I.G.)
      The US War for Independence is a bad example, somewhat. According to John Adams, only around a third of Colonialists positively supported American independence. It was an undemocratic exercise. The problem with the Catalan referendum, its being outside the law, is that it lacks legitimacy. Not everyone participated and we don't know that the ballots were securely managed. It is important to keep everything legal and in line with the Spanish constitution because that is the only way the Catalans will secure a democratic legitimate independence, without tumult.
      Like the Scotland one, Parliament agreed which Spanish government did not. EU according to (Express) says if they declare Catalonia independent they'll be out of EU & reapply

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      (Original post by L i b)
      Not really. You see, the point of law is that it is an exercise of force. Politics exists within the lawful structures that the state creates. Catalan nationalists might have little regard for the law - but that puts them outside of normal politics in a liberal, democratic state.

      Nor are illegal secessionist referendums democratic in any meaningful sense. A democracy does not and cannot exist outside of the structure of accepted rules and laws: without that, it is meaningless. In this case, the law quite clearly ascribes these constitutional issues to a Spanish demos. This, if anything, was a poor parody of democracy, guest-starring some truncheon-happy fools from the Spanish national police forces.
      Laws change all the time. This particular one is rather fascists: "you cannot leave us".
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      (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
      I spotted some CNT flags in the crowds in the news today. If only anarcho-syndicalism were a strong social force again as apposed to just being a fringe of flag wavers. *sigh*
      To be fair, they still have more clout in Spain, and Catalonia in particular, than anarchist unions have just about anywhere else in the world. CNT and CGT are still actual players in Spanish labour disputes in a way the Wobblies struggle to be any more.
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      (Original post by yudothis)
      Laws change all the time.
      Yes, through legal means. This is what is called the "rule of law" and is generally considered to be essential in a civilised society. It protects individuals, who are not governed by rules decided on by a whim - or rules that are simply applied differently on the basis of some individual's prejudices.

      This particular one is rather fascists: "you cannot leave us".
      I'm not really sure what this has to do with fascism, other than that fascism was a form of government. What you seem to object to in this case is a state exercising authority: all states do that within the structure of the rules that are created. Spain is of course a liberal democracy.

      In terms of the rule itself, Spanish law does not allow for unilateral secession of its subdivisions. Neither do many countries (indeed, I can only think of a small number of examples where that is possible) - and only within pre-established conditions. The United States of course and many countries besides have fought large-scale civil conflicts on this principle.

      As I've said, I can completely understand why most countries do not provide their own break-up: a state that allows such a free-for-all will not long endure and in all reality, power will be entirely concentrated in whichever unit it grants these rights to. The state itself would become completely impotent.
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      (Original post by yudothis)
      So what?

      The whole point is that they don't want to be a part of Spain, i.e. Spanish law can go **** itself.
      Basically right, yes.

      I feel like if 'it's illegal!' were a sound response to an independence movement we'd have a lot more foreign territories right now.
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      (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
      Basically right, yes.

      I feel like if 'it's illegal!' were a sound response to an independence movement we'd have a lot more foreign territories right now.
      Yet we have that response to Cornish, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish, North East England, London movements.

      The "it's illegal" only becomes inoperative when we subjectively decide that the movement has merit and is in the right.
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      (Original post by Notorious_B.I.G.)
      Yet we have that response to Cornish, Welsh, Scottish, Northern Irish, North East England, London movements.

      The "it's illegal" only becomes inoperative when we subjectively decide that the movement has merit and is in the right.
      The 'it's illegal' response is confused from the beginning. It involves appealing to the particulars of a law in an argument which is essentially about whether that particular source of law should be recognised. This argument is circular. Where the authority of a particular set of rules is disputed, all there is is politics.

      I know you're in some way involved in law because I've seen you on the careers forum, but I don't know where you're up to exactly. Have you read Hart?
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      (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
      The 'it's illegal' response is confused from the beginning. It involves appealing to the particulars of a law in an argument which is essentially about whether that particular source of law should be recognised. This argument is circular. Where the authority of a particular set of rules is disputed, all there is is politics.

      I know you're in some way involved in law because I've seen you on the careers forum, but I don't know where you're up to exactly. Have you read Hart?
      If Scotland's Parliament acted outside its powers, I am sure you'd opt for the Supreme Court to deal with the issue rather than letting it be decided by political debate. We are ultimately predisposed to orthodoxy, until we are not. The status quo is presumed until it is rebutted, and we only rebut it when we sympathise with the revolution. Winston Smith is a hero; Jihadi John is not.

      Apologies, yes, I have read Hart. Do you think he shines light on the Catalan situation?
     
     
     
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