Why are pro-gun supporters so unwilling to look at instances where gun control works? Watch

londonmyst
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#61
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#61
(Original post by The RAR)
America is the "land of the free" so they believe they should be free to do anything including owning a gun. One of the many reasons why I am genuinely scared to go to America, it's scary to think every pyscho there can own a gun.
Not quite every pyscho.
Many criminals who have served prison time are legally prevented from owning or possessing a gun.
As are people who have domestic abuse restraining orders filed/granted against them.
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yankeedog1953
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#62
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"...having a stungun is better then having an AK-47."
That has to be THE. oddest thing ive ever read on this site. A very close 2nd would that communism really looks great on paper.
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HRJ210
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#63
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If someone can point out where gun control works, I'll acknowledge it, until then, I remain Pro-gun.
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yankeedog1953
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#64
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I will admit that the right to keep arms privately comes at a price. Never said it didnt. You do have to be willing to pay the. Fortunately most Americans still are.
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QE2
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#65
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(Original post by HRJ210)
If someone can point out where gun control works, I'll acknowledge it, until then, I remain Pro-gun.
How does that work?

By that logic, before an effective smallpox vaccine was developed, you would have been Pro-smallpox!
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QE2
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#66
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(Original post by yankeedog1953)
I will admit that the right to keep arms privately comes at a price. Never said it didnt. You do have to be willing to pay the. Fortunately most Americans still are.
What is the benefit of privately keeping arms?
(Note: this must be something that is not possible if there were no privately held arms. And it can't be "self-defence" because you are more likely to be shot if you own a gun than if you don't.)

And how does this "benefit" outweigh the price of nearly 40,000 dead last year?
(Remember that this is 50 times higher than in the UK where we have strict gun control.)
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yankeedog1953
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#67
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Ypur wrong about more likely being shot if you have a gun in your home. that 40000 dead include all deaths by gun. accidental, ssuicide, police shootings, legitimate shootings, etc. A gun is used somewhere in the US everyday for selfdefense.
I read today in Investors Daily that PER CAPITA the Us comes in at 11th. place in the world for deaths from mass shootings. Remember we have 5 times the pop. you have.
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HRJ210
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#68
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(Original post by QE2)
How does that work?

By that logic, before an effective smallpox vaccine was developed, you would have been Pro-smallpox!
I'm not sure what you mean. I believe that owning a gun would make me safer, as it would provide me with the means to protect myself in a dangerous situation. It is, in my opinion, why violent crime has seen an increase in cities like London.

Gun control would only remove guns from law abiding citizens, who have no intention to harm another person, criminals will still find ways to buy weapons off the black market regardless of the law, hence the reason why gun crime has seen an increase in Britain over the past two years, despite the strict laws.
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Doones
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#69
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(Original post by yankeedog1953)
Ypur wrong about more likely being shot if you have a gun in your home. that 40000 dead include all deaths by gun. accidental, ssuicide, police shootings, legitimate shootings, etc. A gun is used somewhere in the US everyday for selfdefense.
I read today in Investors Daily that PER CAPITA the Us comes in at 11th. place in the world for deaths from mass shootings. Remember we have 5 times the pop. you have.
Why are you only worried about mass shootings?

Meanwhile, have a look at Snopes view of your data:
https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/un...ath-shootings/

Especially the final comment: "In other words, things have become dramatically worse in the United States since the CPRC research was first published."
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QE2
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#70
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(Original post by yankeedog1953)
Ypur wrong about more likely being shot if you have a gun in your home.
It is correct.
https://www.scientificamerican.com/a...vidence-shows/
https://academic.oup.com/aje/article/160/10/929/140858

that 40000 dead include all deaths by gun. accidental, ssuicide, police shootings, legitimate shootings, etc. A gun is used somewhere in the US everyday for selfdefense.
Yes, that was my point. Where gun ownership is common, death by gun is common.
Where gun ownership is restricted, death by gun is restricted.

So, how many of those 40,000 do you think deserved to die, roughly?

I read today in Investors Daily that PER CAPITA the Us comes in at 11th. place in the world for deaths from mass shootings. Remember we have 5 times the pop. you have.
"Per capita" figure removes the influence of population size. lol!
And people killed in solitary shootings are just as dead as the victims of mass shootings, and their friends and family are just as devastated, so I'm not sure why you only include mass shootings.
The US is actually 10th in the world, with only countries like Columbia, Honduras, El Salvador and Brazil above it. Even Mexico has around half the rate of the US!
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yankeedog1953
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#71
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#71
I go by FBI stats. Im concerned with mass shooting in particular because they're the craziest. Im not concerned about someone ending their life with a gun. Its not a bad way to go. I applaude self defense shootings. As far as accidental shootins, well none are going to live forever. I did read your link. Cant disagree with the article.
it did however dawn on me that even if the number killed were 100 times the total in the article that would still not persuade me or anyone i know to hand over my firearms to the Gov.
One person using a gun to defend himself outweighs the tragedy of deaths from mass shootings. The need for selfdefense will be hete long after mass shootings are no longer part of the news.
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QE2
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(Original post by HRJ210)
I'm not sure what you mean.
You said that until you were convinced that controlling something lethal worked, you would be in support of that lethal thing.

I believe that owning a gun would make me safer, as it would provide me with the means to protect myself in a dangerous situation. It is, in my opinion, why violent crime has seen an increase in cities like London.
But it doesn't. All the studies show that people who own guns are more likely to be shot that people who don't.
Owning a gun makes you less safe.

Gun control would only remove guns from law abiding citizens, who have no intention to harm another person, criminals will still find ways to buy weapons off the black market regardless of the law,
Every illegally held gun started out as a legally held one. Without a source of legal ones, illegal ones are less common.

hence the reason why gun crime has seen an increase in Britain over the past two years, despite the strict laws.
Firearms offences in the UK have been declining steadily since a peak in 2004. There are annual fluctuations but the general trend is downward and it is less than half what it was 12 years ago.
And the rate of crime involving guns is a tiny fraction of the rate in the US where guns are easily obtainable.
There is no argument for easy availability and private gun ownership.
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yankeedog1953
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#73
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If you have a gun in the home you probably are more likely to get murderd by a gun but it will probably by your spouse or gamily member and not an intruder. Being anti gun you probably dont see a big difference. i do.
of course there will be more gun deaths where there are more guns. We use guns; you guys run them over or stab them.
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QE2
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#74
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(Original post by yankeedog1953)
I go by FBI stats.
Present them then and explain what they show. Just saying "I got stats" is meaningless.

I did read your link. Cant disagree with the article.
it did however dawn on me that even if the number killed were 100 times the total in the article that would still not persuade me or anyone i know to hand over my firearms to the Gov.
Of course not. You like guns. They are exciting. They make you feel powerful. You believe that they protect you, despite the evidence - as you admit.

One person using a gun to defend himself outweighs the tragedy of deaths from mass shootings. The need for selfdefense will be hete long after mass shootings are no longer part of the news.
So why don't people in the UK need guns to defend themselves? Why isn't the murder rate way higher in the UK? After all, we have no way of defending ourselves, do we?

If you only need guns to defend yourselves against other people with guns, then guns are obviously the problem.
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QE2
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#75
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(Original post by yankeedog1953)
If you have a gun in the home you probably are more likely to get murderd by a gun but it will probably by your spouse or gamily member and not an intruder. Being anti gun you probably dont see a big difference. i do.
of course there will be more gun deaths where there are more guns. We use guns; you guys run them over or stab them.
So you admit that the high rate of gun deaths in the US is directly linked to high gun ownership, but you don't care because it's other people getting killed.
How noble of you. The Founding Fathers would have been so proud.
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HRJ210
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#76
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(Original post by QE2)
You said that until you were convinced that controlling something lethal worked, you would be in support of that lethal thing.

But it doesn't. All the studies show that people who own guns are more likely to be shot that people who don't.
Owning a gun makes you less safe.

Every illegally held gun started out as a legally held one. Without a source of legal ones, illegal ones are less common.

Firearms offences in the UK have been declining steadily since a peak in 2004. There are annual fluctuations but the general trend is downward and it is less than half what it was 12 years ago.
And the rate of crime involving guns is a tiny fraction of the rate in the US where guns are easily obtainable.
There is no argument for easy availability and private gun ownership.
This is not true, they are not bought off of legal gun owners. Illegal guns are smuggled in, usually from eastern European countries such as Albania. People illegally buying guns off of legal owners is unheard of.

Firearms offenses in the UK have not been declining. since 2017, gun related crimes have surged, not a single one of these crimes included legally owned firearms.

The US is in a similar situation, the vast majority of gun related crimes are a result of illegally owned firearms, smuggled in across the Mexican border.
If legally owned firearms were made illegal, gun crime would not change much in the US.

The US also has Open-Carry laws, this saves more lives than it ends. It is proven that people are less likely to attack someone who is armed.
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Doones
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#77
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(Original post by yankeedog1953)
If you have a gun in the home you probably are more likely to get murderd by a gun but it will probably by your spouse or gamily member and not an intruder. Being anti gun you probably dont see a big difference. i do.
You're still dead.

of course there will be more gun deaths where there are more guns. We use guns; you guys run them over or stab them.
And death by knife crime is (much) higher in the US than the UK.
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QE2
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#78
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(Original post by HRJ210)
This is not true, they are not bought off of legal gun owners.
That's not what I said. Illegally held guns were legal at some point in their life. Then they are bought from manufacturers or legal arms dealers by illegal arms dealers, stolen from legal owners, etc. One of the reasons why there are few illegal guns in the UK is the fact that there are so few legal sources.

Firearms offenses in the UK have not been declining. since 2017, gun related crimes have surged, not a single one of these crimes included legally owned firearms.
Firearms offences have been declining from a peak in 2003. Even allowing for the 11% rise last year, they are still a tiny fraction of the US numbers. And you genuinely think that removing gun controls in the UK would not lead to an even greater increase in gun crime?


The US is in a similar situation, the vast majority of gun related crimes are a result of illegally owned firearms, smuggled in across the Mexican border.
If legally owned firearms were made illegal, gun crime would not change much in the US.
Perhaps, perhaps not, but gun deaths certainly would decrease. So what do you think the justification is for not imposing stricter gun controls if it will not increase gun crime and will reduce gun deaths?

The US also has Open-Carry laws, this saves more lives than it ends. It is proven that people are less likely to attack someone who is armed.
Evidence for this please.
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Drewski
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#79
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(Original post by yankeedog1953)
One person using a gun to defend himself outweighs the tragedy of deaths from mass shootings.
And here we see the inherent selfish nature of the US. A place that never really grew out of its wild west 'me first' adolescence.
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HRJ210
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(Original post by QE2)
That's not what I said. Illegally held guns were legal at some point in their life. Then they are bought from manufacturers or legal arms dealers by illegal arms dealers, stolen from legal owners, etc. One of the reasons why there are few illegal guns in the UK is the fact that there are so few legal sources.

Firearms offences have been declining from a peak in 2003. Even allowing for the 11% rise last year, they are still a tiny fraction of the US numbers. And you genuinely think that removing gun controls in the UK would not lead to an even greater increase in gun crime?


Perhaps, perhaps not, but gun deaths certainly would decrease. So what do you think the justification is for not imposing stricter gun controls if it will not increase gun crime and will reduce gun deaths?

Evidence for this please.
1) Although I agree that this is a problem, it cannot be solved through gun control, guns will still find their way into the country, whether legally or illegally.
Most illegal firearms in this country cannot be legally owned anyway, so it is evident that current gun control laws are ineffective at preventing this.

2) I apologize, I should have made myself clearer. Gun crime was declining until 2017, since then it has been on the rise.

3 and 4) Actually there is a good chance that gun deaths would increase, this is because, according to Criminologist and researcher Gary Kleck, it is estimated that firearms are used for self defense around 1.6 million times a year in the US. According to a survey, One in six people who have used firearms for self defense believe that someone could have died if a firearm was not used. This makes roughly 266,000 people saved by firearms each year. According to the Violence Policy Center, since 2007, around 1000 people have been murdered by people with an open carry permit. The number saved far outnumbers the lives lost.
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