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My mum left Islam at 40 years old. AMA. Watch

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    (Original post by jam277.75)
    It’s fairly relevant considering all historians accept and note that Muhammad was an illiterate shepherd prior to the book- it’s certainly interesting, regardless of your views of the actual contents, and if you’d assume that rather than God, he was the author, that someone from such an uneducated background was able to take on and surpass the literature achievements of both a tribe and a language that had prided itself on being so far ahead of everyone else in their scriptures.
    The idea that Muhammad was illiterate is by no means certain. The references in the Quran that are usually cited as showing him to be illiterate make more sense as "without scripture" (ie. without a revealed book) than "unable to read or write. http://www.quran-islam.org/main_topi...y_(P1231).html
    http://quransmessage.com/articles/wa...rate%20FM3.htm

    Muhammad had a privileged upbringing amongst the ruling clans of the Quraysh. As a young man he made several trading expeditions with his uncles. People in charge of such expeditions would have been literate and numerate.
    He was a great success at these and his business acumen became so well known that he was employed as the agent for Mecca's largest and most successful trading business, for whom he made trips as far afield as Yemen and Syria. The whole idea that someone entrusted with a position of such responsibility (and who was such a success at it) could not read or write is simply ridiculous!

    The idea seems to be merely something to push the "miraculous" nature of the Quran. However, his literacy, or otherwise, is irrelevant because at the time the Arabic tradition in poetry and storytelling was mostly oral, not written, so it would not be remarkable for renowned storytellers and poets to be unable to read or write.
    Remember that the Quran was originally transmitted orally and was not written down, just like most creative work.

    So in short, although it is not certain whether Muhammad was literate, circumstance would suggest that he was, but either way it makes no difference to whether the Quran is "divine" or not.
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    Why are you focusing upon the negatives?
    Indeed! And I suppose you think people shouldn't be so hard on Jimmy Savile, just look at all his charity work!

    I am not concerned purley because I do not question my religion unlike you.
    Ah, the Nuremberg Defence.

    Just to let you know it's not irrelevant. To be honest the way the description of the rivers of milk comes in the Sahih sitaa would excite anyone but you.
    Really? Sounds pretty grim TBH.
    I prefer my wine in bottles. I won't touch wine out of a box, never mind a river!
    And a river of milk would be pretty stinky after a few days. More like a "youghurt ditch"!

    And FYI it's actually interesting when you delve into it. You would never be able to delve really deep due to your ignorance.
    Ironic, seing as you can't "delve deep" due to your cognitive dissonance. You have already admitted that you don't question Islam and ignore all the unpleasent bits!
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    It's not only about reading the Holy Quraan it's about studying it to the extent where you're head hurts.
    So you accept that the majority of Muslims around the world, and throughout history, don't really understand Islam.
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    (Original post by faith 101)
    What sort of academic rigour of study are we talking about here?

    Because those who say they have learned a lot... this usually means reading the odd translation, coming to ones own conclusions and consequently leaving the faith

    From your posts in this thread, it doesnt seem like you have a good idea of what you’re talking about. At all.
    And yet many Muslims have never even read the whole Quran, especially in the past, so what does that say about their level of knowledge?

    It usually goes something like this...
    I don't like Islam.
    You don't understand it. Read the Quran.
    I read the Quran. That is what made me dislike it.
    Oh, you can't just read the Quran, you need to read it with a tafsir.
    I read it with a tafsir. That just made it worse.
    Oh, you can't just read the Quran and a tafsir, you have to study it for years.
    I have been studying Islam for six years. Quran, tafsir, biographies of Muhammad, academic histories, watched lectures.
    Oh, you can't study it yourself. You have to study under a Muslim scholar.
    Have you done that?
    No.
    So how do you know you understand it?
    Ignorant Islamophobe!
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    You don't understand it? Not my problem. You're the defination of ignorance.
    The majority of Muslims don't know Arabic. Are they the "definition of ignorance" as well?
    You probably just C&Pd it from sunnah.com. So wise!
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    The media that classifies the Muslims as Terrorists?! Is that the media that you are talking about?

    The media that frames random muslims as committing ridiculous crimes and when a white individual carries outthe same actions he is classified as having mental health issues. Double standards?

    That media are you referring to?
    You need to take off that victim hood and actually look at some MSM.
    You seem to have absolutely no idea what is going on!
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    It's not a quote it's a Hadeeth. Learn the difference.
    You know when a hadith starts with something like..."The prophet said" or "in the words of Allah's apostle"?
    Yes?
    Well, what follows is a quote. Many hadith are quotes.

    Someone with limited general understanding and comprehension shouldn't really be accusing others of "ignorance" with such gay abandon! Just a thought.
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    Islam is an independent religion whereby you can live you're life freely and not be oppressed.
    So you can pray when anh how you like?
    Women can pray at the front of the masjid?
    You can eat what you want?
    You can hang out with unmarried people of the opposite sex, and even have a sexual relationship with them?
    You can express your homosexuality?
    You can wear gold, or animal skins?
    Etc
    Etc...
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    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    When you make a quote such as the one you have made, you need to state the historical context and the verses before and after.

    You haven't done that.

    This verse is referring to a specific event that occurred where the Muslims were persecuted and driven out of their homes.

    Do you think during a wartime situation (e.g. Vietnam) the Americans were told to tickle their enemy with feathers.

    Read this and all will be apparent:

    http://www.islam101.com/terror/verse8_12.htm
    If those verses are only relevant to a past historical event, why did Allah include them in his final, perfect, unchangable, universal guide for all humanity?

    (I have asked this question dozens of times and still haven't had any sort of answer, so don't worry if you can't think of one either.)
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    (Original post by QE2)
    If those verses are only relevant to a past historical event, why did Allah include them in his final, perfect, unchangable, universal guide for all humanity?

    (I have asked this question dozens of times and still haven't had any sort of answer, so don't worry if you can't think of one either.)
    GM! Sorry I don't know the answer to that question
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    (Original post by wonderuss)
    says the guy who hasn't uttered a single valid or relevant point since the beginning of his involvement in this discussion lmao

    cya later mate
    Yeah but .. you do non-sensical things like:

    1) Quote a verse from a Qu'ran
    2) Write "what do you think about it"
    3) address it to the Muslims and Non-Muslims

    What you don't comprehend is the question: "what do you think" is not a valid question to a Muslim because every verse from the Qu'ran is accepted as the word of God. To even say you do not agree with one verse - makes that person a disbeliever. They can say: "I don't understand it" or "I don't know" or they can give further explanations of what the scholarly interpretation means or how that verse was practically implemented by the Prophet SAW but they can't say they don't agree with it.

    Compute?
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    (Original post by QE2)
    The majority of Muslims don't know Arabic. Are they the "definition of ignorance" as well?
    You probably just C&Pd it from sunnah.com. So wise!
    I don't copy and paste from the internet especially when it comes to my religion.

    It's called knowledge something that you are clearly lacking.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    If those verses are only relevant to a past historical event, why did Allah include them in his final, perfect, unchangable, universal guide for all humanity?

    (I have asked this question dozens of times and still haven't had any sort of answer, so don't worry if you can't think of one either.)
    Because it was relevant and like life it's a lesson to be endured. The Holy Quraan is filled with all sorts of past historical events not only this one, however like I have stated it's because individuals can get a glimpse upon how life was endured before and they also are consious that their life is not hard compared to the prophets and companions who underwent through many trials to bring you this religion.( Even if you had not asked for it. )

    A blessing in disguise that you continue to ignore.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    And yet many Muslims have never even read the whole Quran, especially in the past, so what does that say about their level of knowledge?

    It usually goes something like this...
    I don't like Islam.
    You don't understand it. Read the Quran.
    I read the Quran. That is what made me dislike it.
    Oh, you can't just read the Quran, you need to read it with a tafsir.
    I read it with a tafsir. That just made it worse.
    Oh, you can't just read the Quran and a tafsir, you have to study it for years.
    I have been studying Islam for six years. Quran, tafsir, biographies of Muhammad, academic histories, watched lectures.
    Oh, you can't study it yourself. You have to study under a Muslim scholar.
    Have you done that?
    No.
    So how do you know you understand it?
    Ignorant Islamophobe!
    lmao on point. I truly commend you for still trying with these people.
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    (Original post by wonderuss)
    QE2 I asked MiszShortee786 what her view was on this verse:

    "Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other... As for those for whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them"

    and she has completely ignored the question, as she has done with every other horrible thing written in the Quran that has been brought up in this discussion.

    So, I'd suggest that you don't waste your time with people of this level of ignorance, to be honest.
    I ignored it because what I 'think' about such a verse does not matter. Why are you so concerned?

    To be honest you're the most ignorant individual I have come across.
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    Because it was relevant and like life it's a lesson to be endured.
    Ah, so the passages about killing people who refuse to submit to Islam are an "enduring lesson".
    So they aren't "just about what happened in the past".
    Thanks for clearing that up.

    The Holy Quraan is filled with all sorts of past historical events not only this one,
    I know. That's why I asked what they are there for, if not as part of a guide, or a lesson.

    however like I have stated it's because individuals can get a glimpse upon how life was endured before
    But why is that relevant to the final, perfect and universal guide for all humanity?
    Remember, I was asking why the passages about killing and violence are included in the current rule book?

    The UK legal system doesn't still contain hanging. It is just in history books. That's where you find out about how life was in the past! Remember that the Quran is the perfect and unchangeable guide for life today, in the UK, and the future everywhere, not just in 7th century Arabia.

    and they also are consious that their life is not hard compared to the prophets and companions
    I'm sure there are some Yazidis and Rohingya might beg to differ!

    A blessing in disguise that you continue to ignore.
    When you say "a blessing in disguise", what do you mean? What are you referring to?
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    (Original post by wonderuss)
    QE2 I asked MiszShortee786 what her view was on this verse:

    "Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other... As for those for whom you fear disobedience, admonish them and send them to beds apart and beat them"

    and she has completely ignored the question, as she has done with every other horrible thing written in the Quran that has been brought up in this discussion.

    So, I'd suggest that you don't waste your time with people of this level of ignorance, to be honest.
    I have crossed paths with Shortee before. I carry on because I know that there are people watching who do listen, and sometimes it makes them think. And as Hitch said "Never be a spectator of unfairness or stupidity. Seek out argument and disputation for their own sake; the grave will supply plenty of time for silence."

    I have debated verse 4:34 many times with many Muslims of varying levels of knowledge, including self-styled "scholars", and it always turns out the same way.
    The problem they have is essentially the old "rock and a hord place" issue.
    They know the Quran, hadith and tafsir, as well as modern "moderate" scholars all admit that a husband is allowed to beat a disobedient wife (under certain circumstances), so they can't condemn it. However, at the same time most Muslims also know that to claim that such behaviour is acceptable will show them to be some kind of misogynist monster. Therefore they usually tend to simply avoid comment.
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    I ignored it because what I 'think' about such a verse does not matter. Why are you so concerned?

    To be honest you're the most ignorant individual I have come across.
    Could you please enlighten me on why what you think doesn't matter? I'd be ever so grateful.
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    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    I looked at this persons previous posts. She's at University of Essex. So say no more lol

    No point arguing with someone who's level of enthusiasm to post rubbish on here exceeds their intellectual capacity.
    lol where are you getting the audacity to speak about intellectual capacity from, love? aren't you the one who doesn't believe followers of religions should use their God-given brain to think and form their own opinions? lmao

    And yes, University of Essex student and proud My course ranks 21st in the country so idk what point you're trying to make. Try again.
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    I ignored it because what I 'think' about such a verse does not matter. Why are you so concerned?
    It kinda does matter, because it is basically saying that domestic violence is acceptable under certain conditions.

    Are you opposed to domestic violence or do you think it is sometimes acceptable?

    You calim that Islam is "beautiful" and "peaceful", and yet it permits wife-beating (under certain conditions).
    Now, I don't know how you were brought up, but in my atheist family we were taught that domestic violence is neither peaceful nor beautiful. Perhaps this is yet another one of those occasions where your much vaunted "Islamic morality" isn't as "moral" as our degenerate atheist morality? Hmm?

    Feel free to correct my ignorance on the matter. Perhaps I'm just too stupid to understand why beating a disobedient wife can be a good thing?
 
 
 
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