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My mum left Islam at 40 years old. AMA. Watch

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    (Original post by stressedteen)
    Muslims are massively oppressed
    In some countries, yes (ironically, the countries where Muslims face the harshest oppression are often Muslim countries!). In the developed countries, they most certainly are not!

    and the media are so quick to blame 1.8 billion people innocent Muslims, for 20,000 idiotic ISIS members.
    But they aren't. Certainly in the UK, the MSM goes out of its way to separate ISIS and ordinary Muslims. Show me a single report from a reputable source that blames all Muslims for the actions of ISIS. They don't even blame Islam! (And Islam is demonstrably partly to blame for the actions of ISIS)

    However, there is an interesting issue regarding the motivation and justification used by ISIS, and ordinary Muslims. I'll explain.
    All Muslims claim that the Quran is the final, perfect, unchangable and universal guide for all humanity, and that the sunnah of Muhammad is the ultimate example of moral behaviour.

    The Quran and sunnah explicitly permit Muslims to use female captives for sex.
    ISIS use female captives for sex.
    Many Muslims in the west condemn ISIS for doing this - but at the same time continue to insist that the permission to do it is perfect and unchangable.

    So, are ordinary Muslims who claim that what ISIS are doing is allowed by the perfect guide sent by their infallible god, giving ISIS tacit support? At the very least, they are displaying an unconscious hypocrisy.
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    (Original post by LadiesMan99)
    It's usually that muslims and Islam apologists resort to personal attacks when they don't really have an argument. And you don't really come off as a mature person either.

    Are you a convert to Islam? What are your religious beliefs?
    Thanks for the complement mate. Why should what I believe in be any of your business?

    Personal attacks occur sometimes through exasperation. If I came across in a rude way then I sincerely apologise for that.

    If someone wants to have a gentle civilised argument based on rationality and empirical evidence then I'm all ears!
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    (Original post by stressedteen)
    I personally believe that it’s not religion that dictates these countries, but ridiculous back-minded cultures
    This is an oft-used platitude that is just a myth.
    The "culture" in places like Saudi Arabia, Aghanistan, Pakistan, etc is Islam. Everything in those countries has developed under the umbrella of Islamic ideology for over 1000 years! Are you claiming that Islam is so weak as a social system that even after 1400 years of dominance, the previous culture still has more influence?
    You may as well blame the UK's problems of the Romans!

    because I am a Muslim that comes from a family that believes in rights for all, gays, non-females etc.
    What you and your family believes is irrelevant in th econtext of what Islamic ideology states. Islam states that homosexuals may be executed and effeminate men should be driven from their homes. I'm glad that you don't agree with this, but with all due respect if you disagree with the rules of your club, perhaps you should join a different club?

    The Quran mentions female leaders much more than the Bible does
    So? Of what relevance is that? How does that mitigate the passages of the Quran and sunnah that explicitly discriminate against women?

    and encourages female empowerment which is demonstrated through the Prophets wives, e.g. Aisha.
    How does Islam "encourage female empowerment"?

    Yet everyone seems to fail to mention this, as Muslims are consistently targeted and hated upon.
    Islam is rightly criticised for its attitudes towards gender equality. If Muslims support this inequality, they too may rightly be criticised, just as an American redneck can be criticised for supporting white supremacist ideas.

    Additionally, don’t tell me it’s a religion thing that prevents homosexuality and female rights! This country only just made homosexuality legal a few years ago with still many non-muslims hating on homosexuality and women, and there’s still no signs of equal pay!
    Whataboutery is never a good defence for unacceptable behaviour.

    No one is claiming that this country is perfect, but Muslims claim that Islam is perfect.
    The difference is that UK laws and society can and will change. It is better than it was and it can continue to improve.
    Islam can never change. Muslims are stuck with claiming that a society based on 7th century Arabia is perfect for all people and all times! Really, just have a think about that.

    There’s a long way to go for human rights amongst all countries and every single person and I hope we see that day soon.
    Me too. However, supporting an ideology that insists that nothing can ever change will not help that day arrive.
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    (Original post by jvinmurrey)
    Actually, the notion that Islam was spread by the sword is quite a hasty statement. The Islamic Empire did expand and seize control over other countries, but no one was forced to convert; they were asked to pay a tax (Jizya) to complement the tax that Muslims were paying (zakat).
    Really?
    Islamic armies invaded countries and people converted because they were so impressed? You don't think the threats of violence and loss were an issue? A convert received better treatment than a dhimmi.

    Remember that Muhammad repeatedly said that the way to "preserve life and property" was to convert or pay jizya. Ibn Kathir's tafsir explains sura 9:5 to mean that the pagans had "no choice but to accept Islam or die".
    Pretty much every reference in the Quran to sparing lives involves the victim submitting to Islam.

    If someone says to you "I'm going to cut your head off, but if you convert I'll spare you", are you seriously claiming that this isn't conversion by force?
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    (Original post by jvinmurrey)
    The verse you quoted doesn't actually state that men have authority over women. It states that men are protectors and caretakers of women, and the latter part of that verse is actually meant to mean something along the lines of 'because Allah has made them superior over them in certain ways'. And though that sounds initially sexist, it's a reference to the biological makeup of men and women in which men are more systematic rather than empathetic (this is scientifically proven) and so are more equipped to take up certain roles. Similarly to this, women are considered superior over men in certain ways in Islam as well.
    That is one interpretation. However, if we look at the verse in the context of the other passages in the Quran and sunnah relating to women, it is clear that it means that men are in a social position over women. If there is any doubt, reference to major tafsir will soon clear that up. http://quranx.com/Tafsirs/4.34

    Oh and lastly, the word used at the end of that verse in arabic is daraba, [/quote] No it isn't! The word is "waidribu". Daraba is the root word, not the specific derivitave. (This is how one can tell if the apologist is merely repeating an argument they have read, rather than actually cheching it).

    which in all other uses in the Qu'ran meant "set forth" and not "beat".
    Wrong again. It is only used in the same form in one other place, 8:12, where it describes soldiers striking their enemies in battle.

    And so it's kind of ridiculous (not on your part, but on the part of scholars and Muslim men etc.) to assume that in this one, particular context, God decided to use it to mean "strike".
    Are you claiming that 1400 years of Islamic scholars, and various hadith, as well as all those fluent Arabic translators, have got it wrong - but you have spotted their error? Really?
    Sorry, but this argument has been thouroughly rejected by the consensus of Islamic scholars - as well as by plain common sense!

    It also goes against the hadith in which the Prophet (pbuh) heavily chastised beating or hurting one's wife.
    What about the hadith that detail how severe the beating should be, or what parts of the body must be avoided, and what sort of injury was acceptable?
    And what about the one where Muhammad explicitly permits wife-beating"
    "your right over them is that they should not allow anyone to sit on your furniture whom you dislike; if they do that then hit them but not in a harsh manner." (Muslim 1218)

    Here's a source if you'd like one: https://www.islamtomorrow.com/articl..._treatment.htm
    That is an excercise in circular logic. It starts with the conclusion that the verse does not mean "strike", and then attempts to justify that conclusion. It is both highly selective and essentially dishonest in its argument.

    For every source saying it means "leave", there are hundreds of more authoritative sources that say it means "strike". You are entitled to believe the interpretation that suits you, but you cannot claim that the better-supported interpretation is wrong simply because it is different to yours.

    Islam is essentially ambiguous and contradictory. There is no single, "true" Islam. It depends entirely on interpretation and scholarly consensus. And the scholarly consensus is that verse 3:34 permits a husband to beat a disobedient wife under certain conditions.
    And in the context of other things that are explicitly permitted in Islam - slavery, sex with slaves, amputations for theft, crucifixion for sedition, flogging for fornication, stoning for adultery, execution for homosexuality, etc, as well as the othere references to gender inequality - giving a disobedient wife a slap is entirely believeable.
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    (Original post by jvinmurrey)
    I'm struggling to understand why so many things are often problematic,
    That's simple! It's because you are trying to rationalise Iron Age mythology and 7th century Arabian culture with life in a modern liberal democtracy. Who wouldn't be struggling?

    I've been sort of feeling that my belief in God is unwavering but my belief in Islam is not? And that's a very difficult thing to come to terms with.
    While it is reasonable that some people believe in a supernatural element to the universe, it is not reasonable to claim that it is the god of Islam.
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    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    Mate - it's really simple. Not rocket science - just use your common sense. Decide what's right or wrong and follow it. Just think for yourself
    I think you may have meant this for someone else.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    I think you may have meant this for someone else.
    Nah it's for you ...

    Why do you complicate your arguments by talking about religion. Just use reality and what we know about reality to substantiate your statements.
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    (Original post by stressedteen)
    I'm sorry you could not find peace in Islam, I feel sorry for you because I would be lost without it.
    All the best for the future because you're going to need it.
    Thank you for your very sincere well-wishing, but what makes you believe that I will need Islam after all I have said regarding why I don't like it, with much of my reasons derived from the Quran? I'm a bit confused.
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    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    Nah it's for you ...
    Why do you complicate your arguments by talking about religion.
    You've lost me now.
    Are you asking me to avoid referencing religion is a discussion about religion?

    Just use reality and what we know about reality to substantiate your statements.
    While I agree that religion is made-up nonsense, I would suggest that it is still a known element of reality.
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    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    Nah it's for you ...

    Why do you complicate your arguments by talking about religion. Just use reality and what we know about reality to substantiate your statements.
    Um, because this discussion is about religion? I think you're a bit lost. Not surprising, though.
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    (Original post by wonderuss)
    Um, because this discussion is about religion? I think you're a bit lost. Not surprising, though.
    Read what I'm writing to QE2.
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    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    Yes I know it's about religion. What I mean is that it's a point of contention. Person A cites X is true whilst person B cites Y is truth. However, as faith/belief/religion or whatever you want to call it is based on belief without evidence by definition, why not start an argument on which everyone agrees with. Is testable and verifiable?
    I understand what you're saying. You have said this before. But we're not talking about belief/faith in the existence of God, for example. We are discussing tangible things that are written in the tangible Quran.
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    I forgot to mention something I think is quite significant to this thread. When my mum first started questioning Islam and proposing certain views against particular things within it, I responded with the same reaction that Muslims commonly have. I was quite angry and felt she was insulting the religion and was irritated at how she could go against Islam and the prophet Muhammad like this. My siblings and I had a lot of arguments with her and there were a lot of problems within my family. I used to argue using some of the same points that some of the Muslims here have said and like a few people on here, found myself unable to answer some of the questions put forward [by my mum]. But I think it was through these arguments and discussions that my mind slowly began to open up and I began becoming more tolerant of my mother's views, and realised that some of the points she was making were actually true.

    I'm just putting this out there because I understand that many Muslims reading this thread may feel very angry or irritated by what they're reading and at how their religion can be criticised like this. I felt the same exact way, especially since it was my own mother who was criticising it. But all I want to say is - allow some space in your minds for opposing information to firmly pre-held beliefs. It is difficult at first but it is very necessary for you to live a fulfilling life.
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    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    Yes I know it's about religion. What I mean is that it's a point of contention. Person A cites X is true whilst person B cites Y is truth. However, as faith/belief/religion or whatever you want to call it is based on belief without evidence by definition, why not start an argument on which everyone agrees with. Is testable and verifiable?
    Again, much of this discussion is about elements of Islamic ideology, not about whether god exists. This is not about "belief" but about "evidence"
    If person A claims that religion R states "X", that claim can be tested and verified by referring to the texts of said religion, in order to see what they actually say.
    People's belief, or lack thereof, is irrelevant in such a context .
    If someone claims "Islam forbids X", and there are passages in the Quran that say "X is permitted", then the argument has been settled using evidence. Belief does not come into it.
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    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    What I am saying is the the following and please accept this in the best possible way:

    You're all bright chaps and chapesses studying in our best universities. The future of Britain! This is not a debate for hostility or to berate each other.

    Whatever you are debating in this thread has no solution. People have been debating it for hundreds of years and I have no doubt it will be debated for thousands of years more.

    I'm just saying use a bit of lateral thinking. Break the problem into its sub parts. Argue/debate about what we know - build your arguments in a logical way so they follow.

    Solve each problem so you have verifiable testable solution everyone agrees with.
    So what you are saying is rather than just claiming "Islam is false", break it down into sub-parts and find a specific issue that can be settled using verifyable evidence?
    Like we have been doing for the last several pages!
    :facepalm2:
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    (Original post by QE2)
    So what you are saying is rather than just claiming "Islam is false", break it down into sub-parts and find a specific issue that can be settled using verifyable evidence?
    Like we have been doing for the last several pages!
    :facepalm2:
    When I talk about evidence, I'm not talking about religious evidence. I'm talking about good solid scientific evidence - that's testable, verifiable and everyone can agree with.
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    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    What I am saying is the the following and please accept this in the best possible way:

    You're all bright chaps and chapesses studying in our best universities. The future of Britain! This is not a debate for hostility or to berate each other.
    So you make a snide, sarcastic comment and then follow it with 'this is not a debate for hostility or to berate each other'. Hm okay.

    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    Whatever you are debating in this thread has no solution. People have been debating it for hundreds of years and I have no doubt it will be debated for thousands of years more.
    Debating is part of the solution - more and more Muslims are becoming more open-minded and leaving Islam.

    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    I'm just saying use a bit of lateral thinking. Break the problem into its sub parts. Argue/debate about what we know - build your arguments in a logical way so they follow.
    This is exactly what we have been doing.

    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    Solve each problem so you have verifiable testable solution everyone agrees with.
    What else do you think we need, professor? As I've already said before, we are simply discussing things written in the Quran which we believe are wrong and therefore must be discussed. This is in turn bringing awareness to these issues which is what we need to fight against the power of the ignorance of some of the members of Islam. Do you get where I'm coming from? Or do you still think we must all remain quiet and not talk about things that are wrong?

    Spoiler:
    Show

    On a side note, if you think what we are discussing is futile then why are you here?
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    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    When I talk about evidence, I'm not talking about religious evidence. I'm talking about good solid scientific evidence - that's testable, verifiable and everyone can agree with.
    Please give an example of the kind of scientific evidence that you're seeking
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    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    No I'm not saying that :-) I'm saying leave out religion altogether. There is no solution to this problem. As I've said before - people have debated it since time immemorial...

    And they'll be asking the same questions for the next thousand years ...

    Start off with what we do know. Starter for 10: the Big Bang 13.8 billion years ago.
    If you don't like religious debate, perhaps it would be better for you if you didn't get involved in them. It seems somewhat presumptious of you to tell people who are happy to debate religion to stop doing it and to discuss what, and how you, want.

    Also, you do realise that there have been many and major changes in attitudes to, and arguments for, religions over the centuries. How do you think the world would be now if Hume had thought "nah, not worth the bother", or Martin Luther, or Muhammad, or Constantine, Jesus, or Aristotle? The same, or different?
 
 
 
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