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My mum left Islam at 40 years old. AMA. Watch

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    (Original post by Ninja Squirrel)
    How do we know for certain he said that and that the things in the hadiths are actually 100% true?

    From what I understand and correct me if I'm wrong but the Quran is the only book Muhammad actually wrote? The hadiths were written long after he died and could easily be incorrect?
    Hadith form an essential part of the Islamic faith and the overwhelming majority of Muslims accept them, with collections like Bukhari and Muslim being considered the most authentic. Fundamental pillars of Islam, such as the way to pray for example, are not found in the Quran and are thus derived entirely from the Hadith. From a historical perspective we don’t know if they’re 100% true, but the most authentic collections are considered to be true by most Muslims.

    Muslims who only accept the Quran (they’re known as Quranist Muslims) are generally derided and greatly frowned upon.
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    I didn't state that. I was replying to the other poster in regards to the Hadeeth. I didn't imply that I am 'okay' with it.

    Please do not twist my words and Re-read if you do not understand anything.

    Jazakillah Khairan
    It doesn't matter if you didn't explicitly state 'I'm okay with it' - you certainly implied it.

    I asked if you would be okay with the scenario that I proposed, you didn't answer me and instead responded to Plantagenet Crown saying that you were also going to mention the hadith about angels cursing a woman if she refuses to have sex with her husband and that Plantagenet Crown 'beat [you] you to it'.

    Hmmm, I wonder what this means...
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Hadith form an essential part of the Islamic faith and the overwhelming majority of Muslims accept them, with collections like Bukhari and Muslim being considered the most authentic. Fundamental pillars of Islam, such as the way to pray for example, are not found in the Quran and are thus derived entirely from the Hadith. From a historical perspective we don’t know if they’re 100% true, but the most authentic collections are considered to be true by most Muslims.

    Muslims who only accept the Quran (they’re known as Quranist Muslims) are generally derided and greatly frowned upon.
    OK thanks for explaining.
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    To be honest I don't give my opinions on Hadeeth I follow it because at the end of the day it's there for a reason.
    And therefore we have now established that you haven't rationally decided to follow this religion but rather were born into it and were indoctrinated.
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    (Original post by Mil99)
    And therefore we have now established that you haven't rationally decided to follow this religion but rather were born into it and were indoctrinated.
    I never denied that.
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    (Original post by MiszShortee786)
    I never denied that.
    But why are you following something which you don't actively know is true? Do you not think that this is flawed? I would mind less if said religion didn't restrict your lifestyle choices for your only life but we all know that is not the case!

    May I point that the Quran actually condemns people like yourself who follow what they were born into ("what your Grandfathers used to follow") and do not truly reflect and ponder
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    (Original post by Mil99)
    But why are you following something which you don't actively know is true? Do you not think that this is flawed? I would mind less if said religion didn't restrict your lifestyle choices for your only life but we all know that is not the case!

    May I point that the Quran actually condemns people like yourself who follow what they were born into ("what your Grandfathers used to follow" and do not truly reflect and ponder
    I guess it all boils down to trust. For example I eat food everyday that I don't know for a fact has not been spat in or contains bacteria etc but I trust that it's clean and healthy. So even though religious people don't know for a fact the religion is true, I think they just trust that it is.
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    (Original post by Ninja Squirrel)
    I guess it all boils down to trust. For example I eat food everyday that I don't know for a fact has not been spat in or contains bacteria etc but I trust that it's clean and healthy. So even though religious people don't know for a fact the religion is true, I think they just trust that it is.
    Food is something which can and has been tested on and verified to exist. The Islamic concepts and beliefs cannot be. It's like me saying : the same way you take precautions for road traffic accidents, it's sensible to take similar precautions for a ghost to attack you.

    You cannot compare them. It also should be noted that one has a clear demonstrable effect on human life and the other has absolutely no demonstrable effect yet.
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    (Original post by angelike1)
    A bit too dark :lol: but that's a nice analogy.
    I was thinking of someone in particular.
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    (Original post by wonderuss)
    I have a question for you. Would it be okay with you if you refused to have sex with your Muslim husband one night then he hit you for your disobedience? Because your religion says this is allowed. Your husband could literally bring out the Quran and say 'look, God tells you not to be disobedient to me so we have to have sex right now'.
    To be fair, he would have to warn her first, then refuse to sleep with her, and then if she still refused to obey him, then he could strike her, but not too severely and avoiding the face.

    And in the case of your example, there is a specific hadith where Muhammad tells women that if they refuse their husbands advances, "angels will curse her until morning!" Also another which says "Allah will be angry with her until her husband is pleased with her".

    Almost sounds as if the wife's compliance is taken for granted.
    There is a modern Islamic scholar (Dr Jonathan Brown) who claims that "consent is irrelevant in the context of legal intercourse". He was referring specifically to slaves at the time, but it applies equally to wives.
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    (Original post by Mythirdleg)
    What I believe in is none of your business or anyone's business for that matter and I don't feel obliged to divulge it in a public forum.
    That's ok. It's pretty obvious.

    I believe in gentle, civilised, rational arguments based on empirical evidence.
    And no one is criticising you for indulging in that. Likewise, it is not your place to criticise others for indulging in their own preference.

    You are no different to the example that I gave: Person A believes X, Person B believes Y .... you're just another one in the chain each thinking their point of view is correct.
    I'll try and explain again.
    Person A says "Islam prohibits X"
    Person B says "Islam permits X"
    We look at the Quran and sunnah and find that one os correct and one is incorrect.
    Claim - evidence - resolution.
    I thought that was your thing?

    I don't agree with what you are doing because I think it hurts people's feelings.
    Oh, boo hoo!

    Some people derive a great deal of comfort from their faith (whatever that might be). Especially in times of sorrow, pain or distress.
    And others derive comfort, relief, etc from drink, drugs, sex, violence, art, whatever. Are all these things now off limits for analysis and criticism just because it's someone's favourite thing?

    Who are you to insult what people believe in?
    But I don't insult it. I merely point out the flaws and inconsistencies. Being able to accept criticism is part of being a successful member of society.

    One must respect another persons faith and point of view (whatever that might be) even if it's disagreeable (based on your internal set of morality parameters).
    Apart from the obvious of you not respecting my point of view that all ideologies are fair game for exposure and criticism, you are claiming that I must respect Hitler's final solution, or ISIS's literalist version of Islam, or the paedophile's "point of view" that children can be willing and consensual sexual partners?
    You really need to think these arguments through first. I notice it is usually those who favour the more unacceptable beliefs who claim that all beliefs must be "respected".

    I believe in treating my fellow human being like a brother or sister with love,
    kindness, compassion and understanding and being charitable to people less fortunate than myself.
    Meaningless platitudes.
    I believe in treating people as individuals, judging them on their words and deeds, not as some homogeneous group. There are plenty of people out there who the world would be better off without. They are not my "brothers and sisters in love".

    Putting morality to one side, I don't believe your thread or arguments are a way forward. The best tool to understand the world around us is Science. What you are doing is of no value and of no significance.
    Look, I get it. You don't like people criticising Islam and exposing flaws in its ideology. I have spoken to many Muslims who have issues with some elements of docrine, be it moral or logical. You are not alone.
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    (Original post by wonderuss)
    I don't think I said I do? Did I say that? If I said that, then I meant that people outside my primary family still know me as a Muslim because I didn't tell them 'I'm not a Muslim anymore'.
    I see
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    (Original post by QE2)
    That's ok. It's pretty obvious.
    Thanks

    (Original post by QE2)
    And no one is criticising you for indulging in that. Likewise, it is not your place to criticise others for indulging in their own preference.
    ok - yep fine.

    (Original post by QE2)
    I'll try and explain again.
    Person A says "Islam prohibits X"
    Person B says "Islam permits X"
    We look at the Quran and sunnah and find that one os correct and one is incorrect.
    Claim - evidence - resolution.
    I thought that was your thing?
    Yes, I understand where you're coming from on this. I'm not interested in religion. I read these sorts of things and think - so what? What interests me is the scientific method: based on observation, hypothesis, experimentation, theory and
    "scientific evidence" not religous evidence.

    How do you think we advanced in the last few hundred years? Electricity, steam engine, antibiotics - it was through the
    intellect, ingenuity and innovation of scientists.

    (Original post by QE2)
    Oh, boo hoo!
    Made me laugh this one :-)

    (Original post by QE2)
    And others derive comfort, relief, etc from drink, drugs, sex, violence, art, whatever. Are all these things now off limits for analysis and criticism just because it's someone's favourite thing?
    OK - got your point and agree with you. No problem with what you are saying here.

    (Original post by QE2)
    But I don't insult it. I merely point out the flaws and inconsistencies. Being able to accept criticism is part of being a successful member of society.
    OK agree up to point. But sometimes you need to put your filters on and be "tactful" - e.g. in a work environment.

    (Original post by QE2)
    Absolute ****ing nonsense! Apart from the obvious hypocrisy of you not respecting my point of view that all ideologies are fair game for exposure and criticism, you are claiming that I must respect Hitler's final solution, or ISIS's literalist version of Islam, or the paedophile's "point of view" that children can be willing and consensual sexual partners?
    You really need to think these arguments through first. I notice it is usually those who favour the more unacceptable beliefs who claim that all beliefs must be "respected".
    I do actually respect your views. With all due respect, Hitler's final solution, ISIS twisted views of Islam and the others you have quoted are all extremes . What I actually meant was in a work environment setting (I'm guessing you're not working at the moment/Student) that one needs to be tactful. You do know in the "real world" i.e. work, discrimination based on on religious views could be grounds for dismissal. I should have perhaps explicitly said this - just to make my point clear.

    (Original post by QE2)
    Meaningless platitudes.
    I believe in treating people as individuals, judging them on their words and deeds, not as some homogeneous group. There are plenty of people out there who the world would be better off without. They are not my "brothers and sisters in love".
    Well, this down to the individual. This is part of what hinduism teaches to be kind to kith and kin. So perhaps have a read about it.

    (Original post by QE2)
    Look, I get it. You don't like people criticising Islam and exposing flaws in its ideology. I have spoken to many Muslims who have issues with some elements of docrine, be it moral or logical. You are not alone.
    I believe in being tactful. I don't like to criticise anyone from any religion. Now this might boil down to the fact in a working environment this is unacceptable (I'm working and you're a student) or down to the fact and this is probably closer to the truth: I don't agree with something but I keep it buried in my mind because I don't see any point in making it vocal. As I have said before I'm not interested in religion but what I am interested in is using my common sense.

    For example: you may think that based on religous texts that you could go out of a eighth story window and reach the ground unharmed. I'd take the elevator to the ground floor and only one person would leave the building.
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    (Original post by QE2)

    Do you eat non-halal food?
    :nope:

    I know you're gonna comment on that :ashamed2:
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    (Original post by ClearSky II)
    :nope:

    I know you're gonna comment on that :ashamed2:
    No. I completely get why not eating chicken that hasn't had bismilla said over it is way more important than not keeping slaves.
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    I always knew ** was gonna go down in these type of threads :cookie:
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    .....
    Muslims who only accept the Quran (they’re known as Quranist Muslims) are generally derided and greatly frowned upon.

    As does this guy



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElY8sRu9Hi0
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    Tawhidi is great
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    (Original post by wonderuss)
    Tawhidi is great

    I came across him on youtube.
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    (Original post by QE2)
    This is an oft-used platitude that is just a myth.
    The "culture" in places like Saudi Arabia, Aghanistan, Pakistan, etc is Islam. Everything in those countries has developed under the umbrella of Islamic ideology for over 1000 years! Are you claiming that Islam is so weak as a social system that even after 1400 years of dominance, the previous culture still has more influence?
    Culture is a lot more than just religion. Indeed, considering you mention Pakistan (which, for the record, has been ruled at different times in the past 1000 years by Hindu and Sikh states as well as Muslim ones, and of course the Christian British Empire), it's worth noting that religion alone failed to be enough to unify the country - hence the secession of Bangladesh, and the Baloch and Sindh militant nationalist movements. Similarly, the fact that Kurds share the same religion as their Turk and Arab neighbours clearly hasn't resulted in a shared sense of cultural identity there.

    You may as well blame the UK's problems of the Romans!
    If you were to make the equivalent claim that British culture is essentially just Christianity, then that is precisely what you'd be saying, given it was the Romans who introduced Christianity to Britain.
 
 
 
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