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    (Original post by friyaa23)
    Well if we let people who aren't so academically gifted we're taking a big risk. If you can't get an A in chemistry a level then there's also a likely correlation with someone failing medical school. And if the floodgates open and everyone becomes a doctor it'll be an even bigger problem. Sorry, but as a patient i'd want my doctor to be able to be intelligent enough and have the aptitude to diagnose me and treat me. I really do not give a crap whether or not they are good with people or not (and most doctors are anyway).

    Well done, you know how to treat a wound, doesn't make you an expert in Haematology now.

    Oh god. The reality is they're not going to be as academically minded as someone with a degree or doing medicine.

    "It wont go well"? Really? I thought a large reason why you feel you can become a doctor is that you're nice and caring! You just sound super entitled. If you were good enough to become a doctor you'd be on a grad scheme programme or you would have done well in A levels, performed in interviews and gotten into medical school. You didn't. Quit whining.
    I didn't apply at 18 because I didn't want to be a doctor then. But I am now a final year medical student and will be a doctor next year. I also happen to be a nurse.

    I am sorry but you really don't know what you're talking about. Most people on graduate entry don't have As in chemistry. Heck, even plenty of undergraduate still get let in with AAB (or less) on results day. It won't make them any less of a doctor than someone who got that precious A in a-level.

    And no, treating a wound doesn't make me an expert in anything. However it gave me plenty of transferable skills, skills that are needed by all doctors. I would also argue that my success in medical school isn't particularly down to intelligence, but my experience and the skills I gained as a nurse.
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    (Original post by GEM2018)
    Well similarly I spoke to a lot of doctors at work and obtained shadowing this way. But this differs from the actual HCA tasks, this is just networking essentially at work? Basically none of my job was working with doctors in a professional capacity though which is what this thread is talking about - like the scope to learn clinical medicine as a HCA is nil in my experience. If you were trying to study a medical degree via a HCA job it'd be impossible - the bulk of the job was making beds, patient care, obs and supporting nurses in the general chaos of the ward haha. ICU is the most likely due to the frequency of doctors but even then I think it'd be very difficult as it's so time-consuming carrying clinical waste disposal, cleaning, helping nurses turn patients etc
    True, didn't think of it in that context. The learning opportunities are there if you seek them and are interested and prepared to put the work in. But aren't mandatory or relatable as you state.

    I think you pick stuff up, and are in a better place than most when starting medical school with regards to clinical diagnoses and how they're treated. But this is incredibly basic knowledge by comparison to med students and doctors.
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    (Original post by ForestCat)
    I didn't apply at 18 because I didn't want to be a doctor then. But I am now a final year medical student and will be a doctor next year. I also happen to be a nurse.

    I am sorry but you really don't know what you're talking about. Most people on graduate entry don't have As in chemistry. Heck, even plenty of undergraduate still get let in with AAB (or less) on results day. It won't make them any less of a doctor than someone who got that precious A in a-level.

    And no, treating a wound doesn't make me an expert in anything. However it gave me plenty of transferable skills, skills that are needed by all doctors. I would also argue that my success in medical school isn't particularly down to intelligence, but my experience and the skills I gained as a nurse.
    Im really not sure what you're trying to argue here. My point is simple. If you get into med school and pass the required exams then great. Be a doctor. There shouldn't be some apprenticeship scheme though, since not everyone can be one so for the sake of efficiency and logic we only let the best in.

    You're trying to smear me with this idea that im obsessed with academics and it's getting pathetic and shows you have no argument.

    And LOOOOL less than AAB? Dont be ****ing stupid, maybe in the good ol' days but that isnt the case anymore. GTFOH.

    Well I can only pray you're not my doctor if god forbid I do get some serious issues. Also good luck passing the exams with your interpersonal skills.
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    (Original post by Marathi)
    True, didn't think of it in that context. The learning opportunities are there if you seek them and are interested and prepared to put the work in. But aren't mandatory or relatable as you state.

    I think you pick stuff up, and are in a better place than most when starting medical school with regards to clinical diagnoses and how they're treated. But this is incredibly basic knowledge by comparison to med students and doctors.
    I think the main advantage imo is that as a HCA you are ward smart, so when doing rotations as a med student you feel comfortable and probably not annoy staff as much, also as a junior you're probs going to understand nurses a bit better. also HCAs are going to be proper comfortable with all the icky stuff as well as being able to talk to patients. + in my experience as a HCA I got the stuff like first dead body 'out of the way' so it's decent mental prep for that. I don't honestly think I learnt any clinical medicine aside from the fact most old people seem to have COPD.
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    (Original post by friyaa23)
    You're trying to smear me with this idea that im obsessed with academics and it's getting pathetic and shows you have no argument.

    And LOOOOL less than AAB? Dont be ****ing stupid, maybe in the good ol' days but that isnt the case anymore. GTFOH.

    Well I can only pray you're not my doctor if god forbid I do get some serious issues. Also good luck passing the exams with your interpersonal skills.
    lol
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    (Original post by GEM2018)
    I think the main advantage imo is that as a HCA you are ward smart, so when doing rotations as a med student you feel comfortable and probably not annoy staff as much, also as a junior you're probs going to understand nurses a bit better. also HCAs are going to be proper comfortable with all the icky stuff as well as being able to talk to patients. + in my experience as a HCA I got the stuff like first dead body 'out of the way' so it's decent mental prep for that. I don't honestly think I learnt any clinical medicine aside from the fact most old people seem to have COPD.
    Yea it's great being in a position where I already feel comfortable around patients, the nasty stuff, the dead stuff (first cadaver session today - quite a few people had to walk out).

    It's a shame you didn't get chance to learn much clinical medicine. Fortunately where I worked I was able to do venepuncture, 12-lead ECG's, and we had a lot of acutely unwell patients due to being an admissions unit. I always got loads of opportunities to ask about things (what are these bloods testing for? why are you interested in those levels? what will it indicate if it is too high? what is wrong with this persons ECG? can you explain that to me?). Along with learning how certain treatment plans worked, like treating DKA, treating critical limb ischemia, the effects of sliding scales, knowing that certain antibiotics required additional blood tests (Gentamicin) and lots of other things.

    But, like I said, I had to go out of my way to learn these things and some Doctors were better than others at entertaining my enquiries.
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    (Original post by friyaa23)
    Well if we let people who aren't so academically gifted we're taking a big risk. If you can't get an A in chemistry a level then there's also a likely correlation with someone failing medical school. And if the floodgates open and everyone becomes a doctor it'll be an even bigger problem. Sorry, but as a patient i'd want my doctor to be able to be intelligent enough and have the aptitude to diagnose me and treat me. I really do not give a crap whether or not they are good with people or not (and most doctors are anyway).

    Well done, you know how to treat a wound, doesn't make you an expert in Haematology now.

    Oh god. The reality is they're not going to be as academically minded as someone with a degree or doing medicine.

    "It wont go well"? Really? I thought a large reason why you feel you can become a doctor is that you're nice and caring! You just sound super entitled. If you were good enough to become a doctor you'd be on a grad scheme programme or you would have done well in A levels, performed in interviews and gotten into medical school. You didn't. Quit whining.
    No-one is suggesting we should 'open the floodgates'. But there are plenty of nurses who can (and do) go on to become excellent doctors, and your dismissal of them is both patronising and ignorant. Nurses who get into medical school have to jump through exactly the same hoops as any other medical student. Whether they got an A in Chemistry is neither here nor there; if you graduate from medical school, no-one with a brain gives a flying **** what grades you got for your A-levels.

    And good communication skills (with both patients and staff) are not some sort of optional extra for doctors; you patronise nurses, or any other members of staff for that matter, and you make a rod for your own back.

    By the way.. you do realise that ForestCat is a medical student already? She did 'perform in interviews' and 'got into medical school'. You're making yourself sound pretty silly.
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    It's really not a case of Uni being the only route, it's more a case of society being so tunnel visioned towards the usual life script of school > College > Uni, that people forget that you can learn virtually anything at home... You have the greatest source of knowledge at your fingertips, remember that.
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    (Original post by TheMcSame)
    It's really not a case of Uni being the only route, it's more a case of society being so tunnel visioned towards the usual life script of school > College > Uni, that people forget that you can learn virtually anything at home... You have the greatest source of knowledge at your fingertips, remember that.
    You are one deep thinker my dude. But have you noticed which forum you're posting in?
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    This is an odd suggestion. Medicine is a vocational degree - a good three years are usually spent in clinical environments - but you can't really get away with skipping the anatomy, physiology, and biochemistry. If anything, these things probably aren't taught well enough at present. It's not really a matter of "topping up" nursing and physiotherapy degrees - those courses teach students to undertake completely different healthcare roles and aren't just "medicine-lite".

    It also wouldn't be efficient to routinely train people as nurses first with the intention of "topping them up" later to become doctors. If you want a doctor, train a doctor. If you want a nurse, train a nurse. We need many more of both!
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    Talking to two doctors, is it even that important? It’s not exactly false what I said and it comes to the same conclusion anyway that they need to do all the training before stepping foot into a surgery anyway.
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    (Original post by TheMcSame)
    It's really not a case of Uni being the only route, it's more a case of society being so tunnel visioned towards the usual life script of school > College > Uni, that people forget that you can learn virtually anything at home... You have the greatest source of knowledge at your fingertips, remember that.
    Totally agree. Self directed learning and 'teaching yourself' can create people who become just as knowledgable in their chosen field as those who went to university, a lot of people could literally teach themselves medicine (obviously minus the practical skills) or architecture etc. As you say with internet the learning information on any topic is available to all.
    But the problem is in a profit driven capitalist society, universities, dept of education etc want students to pay for the whole Uni course and not just take the exams and assessments to certificate what they taught themselves. If all some students had to do was pay for exams then it would cost a tiny fraction of thr £9k tuition fees.
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    (Original post by Ambitious1999)
    Totally agree. Self directed learning and 'teaching yourself' can create people who become just as knowledgable in their chosen field as those who went to university,
    Lmao who's been telling you this? :rofl2:

    a lot of people could literally teach themselves medicine (obviously minus the practical skills) or architecture etc. As you say with internet the learning information on any topic is available to all.
    So you're saying it's totally possible to teach yourself a course which is clinically oriented and practical (literally by definition), if you simply exclude the practical aspects? Sound logic, sound everything.

    But the problem is in a profit driven capitalist society, universities, dept of education etc want students to pay for the whole Uni course and not just take the exams and assessments to certificate what they taught themselves. If all some students had to do was pay for exams then it would cost a tiny fraction of thr £9k tuition fees.
    If anything, what you're advocating is far more in line with neo-liberal/capitalist economics - cheap, individualistic, minimal regulation training (as opposed to education) which will generate half-baked "providers" with massive gaps in experience and knowledge.

    All sounds vaguely familiar the more you talk about it :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by friyaa23)
    Im really not sure what you're trying to argue here. My point is simple. If you get into med school and pass the required exams then great. Be a doctor. There shouldn't be some apprenticeship scheme though, since not everyone can be one so for the sake of efficiency and logic we only let the best in.

    You're trying to smear me with this idea that im obsessed with academics and it's getting pathetic and shows you have no argument.

    And LOOOOL less than AAB? Dont be ****ing stupid, maybe in the good ol' days but that isnt the case anymore. GTFOH.

    Well I can only pray you're not my doctor if god forbid I do get some serious issues. Also good luck passing the exams with your interpersonal skills.
    How ****ing old are you?
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    (Original post by Ambitious1999)
    But the problem is in a profit driven capitalist society, universities, dept of education etc want students to pay for the whole Uni course ...
    Erm, you mean the non-profit making government-run medical schools? The ones who spend far, far more on med students than £9k per year? The ones with no shareholders to benefit from any hypothetical profits anyway?
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    (Original post by friyaa23)
    Im really not sure what you're trying to argue here. My point is simple. If you get into med school and pass the required exams then great. Be a doctor. There shouldn't be some apprenticeship scheme though, since not everyone can be one so for the sake of efficiency and logic we only let the best in.

    You're trying to smear me with this idea that im obsessed with academics and it's getting pathetic and shows you have no argument.

    And LOOOOL less than AAB? Dont be ****ing stupid, maybe in the good ol' days but that isnt the case anymore. GTFOH.

    Well I can only pray you're not my doctor if god forbid I do get some serious issues. Also good luck passing the exams with your interpersonal skills.
    Posting from friends account.
    As a theatre practitioner, i have gained the knowledge and skills to work in a fast paced environment. I deal with CODE REDS (as in life and death situations) and staff members have to learn anatomy and physiology to a suitable standard to do their job. I've developed close relations with Anaesthetists and Surgeons which has provided me with the opportunity to ask questions and learn from them. Heck i get medical students asking me to clarify things for them.
    So please try not to belittle us health care professionals, our jobs will make yours a heck of a lot easier.
    Oh btw I have seen applicants get into medicine with ABB, so she is not lying.
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    I have a significant problem with this.

    You get ****ing lasagna at your grand rounds?! Da ****.
    We have quite a heavy drug rep presence at every grandround. The food is pretty ****ing epic and varies week to week. Chips, pasta bakes, curries, mac'n'cheese freshly made sandwiches, fresh fruit and chocolate....
    People go to grand round to eat well.
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    (Original post by GEM2018)
    There has been substantial grade inflation since then, I think Ed Milliband got into Oxford with DDD or something (helps if your dad is a famous marxist academic ofc)
    He gor AABB, which were fantastic grades when he took them in 1987.
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    (Original post by friyaa23)
    Well if we let people who aren't so academically gifted we're taking a big risk. If you can't get an A in chemistry a level then there's also a likely correlation with someone failing medical school. And if the floodgates open and everyone becomes a doctor it'll be an even bigger problem. Sorry, but as a patient i'd want my doctor to be able to be intelligent enough and have the aptitude to diagnose me and treat me. I really do not give a crap whether or not they are good with people or not (and most doctors are anyway).

    Well done, you know how to treat a wound, doesn't make you an expert in Haematology now.

    Oh god. The reality is they're not going to be as academically minded as someone with a degree or doing medicine.

    "It wont go well"? Really? I thought a large reason why you feel you can become a doctor is that you're nice and caring! You just sound super entitled. If you were good enough to become a doctor you'd be on a grad scheme programme or you would have done well in A levels, performed in interviews and gotten into medical school. You didn't. Quit whining.
    Oh dear!
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    some med students on here really dont know what a nurse can do. my wife is a district nurse and is training to be an anp. she works along side a gp practice of 8000. the gps there are quite happy with my wifes diagnostic skills. the knowledge to say i dont know is very important. one a lot of students and junior doctors struggle to learn. lots of patients suffer because a junior doctor wont call the consultant.

    wound care is more complex than sticking a bandage on. you need to know there background health you need fresh bloods you need to treat those before any wound will heal you need to understand the blood supply of the legs the therapeutic pros and cons of which dressings. and even when you stick a bandage on how. ive seen some extremely bad dressings from doctors.

    she is capable of doing most of the tasks of a junior doctor better than they are. but she does lack the background of a and p. pharmacology after doing her p300 she can prescribe as a doctor amend meds withdraw others. she has a very good understanding of interactions and side effects from seeing it in practice.

    however she does not want to be a doctor she has no desire to be one. most nurses dont. as another poster said if you want to get on dont annoy the nurses your life will become hard. a well trained doctor will soon learn that a well trained nurses id there equal and not look down on them.

    my wife has done an hnd 2 degrees and is on a masters course.plus hundreds of short courses. she works with doctors of nursing and multiple masters of nursing in multiple specializations. if a nurse wants to train they should be supported by there employer it would assist with the shortages. but no short cuts.

    a degree in nursing and a few years of experience should be treated as matching the entry requirements. a levels really mean nothing. most new nurses have aaa or aab. so in balance a qualified nurse will make a hell of a better student doctor than a kid from school thats been taught how to do a levels. an important point out of 30 years experience we have only known 1 nurse that trained. she still works on the same wards as she used to. she is an excellent doctor with a better skill set than your standard new doctor. sorry for the rant.
 
 
 
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