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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    This explains it well

    https://fullfact.org/economy/did-cut...ise-8-billion/

    When the Tories cut the top rate of tax from 50p to 45p, lots of people deferred their income, leading to an artificially low revenue one year and an artificially high one the next.
    Interesting. Though as your source says, it didn’t cost that much money for such a big tax cut (although it did actually cost some money in the long run) I’m happy to concede.

    Some broader points:

    1: I genuinely think the state taking away half or more of your income is morally wrong unless there is some extreme circumstances- not getting sick or/ and old.

    2:,what Rakas said about Germany’s health care system (which usually beats ours) is pretty accurate. You’ll be interested to know that they actually pay ten percent mate than we do for this, but the difference is they are running s budget surplus.

    3: having a large number of public sector workers in a country with such large debt is obviously a problem


    As an ex Marxist I sometimes find myself nodding at Marxist explanations of economivs, eg here:,http://socialistreview.org.uk/379/wh...swer-austerity

    4: no economic system is perfect and all produce interesting and unintended effects. What I think matters more is essentially ethics based on either virtue or utility. Hence my conservatism/ cynicism.
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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    If you read what i wrote, quote where I "claimed the EU raised VAT and Thatcher didn't".

    You cant. i said the EU introduced it initially and currently require a minimum level of 15% or higher on some goods.

    As you're such a EUrophile and at the same time think high taxes helps the economy, what do you think of EU President Jean Claude Juncker running a tax haven in Luxembourg?
    That's simply not true.

    Thatcher chose to raise VAT to 15%, just as Cameron raised VAT from 17.5% to 20%
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    That's simply not true.

    Thatcher chose to raise VAT to 15%, just as Cameron raised VAT from 17.5% to 20%
    Are you retarded? How can you say a fact isn't true because you haven't heard of it before!!!! At the very least do some research.
    And just ignore the parts you dont like, about the EU being run by a man who understood basic tax economics and is hand in hand with the corporates.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Interesting. Though as your source says, it didn’t cost that much money for such a big tax cut (although it did actually cost some money in the long run) I’m happy to concede.
    The only reason why tax rises don't raise as much money as they could/should (though that's different from actually reducing revenue) is because it's far too easy for people to avoid tax. The reason it's easy to do so is because we lack the political will to really clamp down on tax avoidance loopholes, not because tax rises inherently raise less money.

    Of course tax rises should be accompanied with a genuine attempt to prevent and minimise tax avoidance.

    Some broader points:

    1: I genuinely think the state taking away half or more of your income is morally wrong unless there is some extreme circumstances- not getting sick or/ and old.
    I don't. I guess we just disagree on this point. Not when in return you get phenomenal public services and a better quality of life.

    2:,what Rakas said about Germany’s health care system (which usually beats ours) is pretty accurate. You’ll be interested to know that they actually pay ten percent mate than we do for this, but the difference is they are running s budget surplus.
    Germany don't have a ruling party who seek to undermine their health service at every point and pick fights with doctors to demoralise them.

    Though the NHS is still the best around.

    3: having a large number of public sector workers in a country with such large debt is obviously a problem
    It's not. The money is recycled through the economy. Scandinavian countries have a far higher percentage of their workforce employed in the public sector and their economies fare better than ours.



    4: no economic system is perfect and all produce interesting and unintended effects. What I think matters more is essentially ethics based on either virtue or utility. Hence my conservatism/ cynicism.
    For the same reasons I am increasingly anti free-market, which in addition to being rather cruel, doesn't actually work. I'm a Scandinavian type Socialist/ Social Democrat who wants a large state which cannot be bossed around by conglomerates. In addition, a high tax, high spend economy with the majority of the country covered by collective bargaining agreements.

    Such countries are more productive than us, they have lower rates of poverty, higher rates of literacy and generally higher levels of happiness too.

    What i've come to appreciate is that 'neoliberalism', just like anything else is an authoritarian economic system which throws everyone into a dog eat dog system, giving you little option but to compete or sink.
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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    Are you retarded? How can you say a fact isn't true because you haven't heard of it before!!!! At the very least do some research.
    And just ignore the parts you dont like, about the EU being run by a man who understood basic tax economics and is hand in hand with the corporates.
    I'm not really sure what you're withering on about. The EU did not raise VAT to 15%. That was Thatcher's decision. That's just a fact.

    There's not really much point in carrying on debating with you.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I'm not really sure what you're withering on about. The EU did not raise VAT to 15%. That was Thatcher's decision. That's just a fact.

    There's not really much point in carrying on debating with you.
    How stupid are you! Keep on pretending Im saying things im not. I say the EU set the minimum rate of VAT for each country, and use it as part of the budget demands they make. FACT. I know you cant take them and prefer to be brainwashed by anti-semitic violent momentum trots.
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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    How stupid are you! Keep on pretending Im saying things im not. I say the EU set the minimum rate of VAT for each country, and use it as part of the budget demands they make. FACT. I know you cant take them and prefer to be brainwashed by anti-semitic violent momentum trots.
    I'm not sure why you think repeating the same false claim over and over again makes it true. Thatcher chose to raise VAT from 8% to 15%, not the EU.

    I'm not interested in getting into a slanging match with you, despite the rather immature personal attacks you've been making so I won't be replying to your future posts from now on.
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    I'd like to see James Cleverly, Jacob Rees-Mogg and Kemi Badenoch promoted to cabinet positions.
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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    How stupid are you! Keep on pretending Im saying things im not. I say the EU set the minimum rate of VAT for each country, and use it as part of the budget demands they make. FACT. I know you cant take them and prefer to be brainwashed by anti-semitic violent momentum trots.
    The EU started that policy (with the support of the UK) in 1992. Thatcher's government raised VAT to 15% thirteen years before that, in 1979 - that was entirely their decision.
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    The EU started that policy (with the support of the UK) in 1992. Thatcher's government raised VAT to 15% thirteen years before that, in 1979 - that was entirely their decision.
    I NEVER SAID IT WASN'T!
    Bornblue keeps deleting the evidence when I post it https://www.vatlive.com/vat-rates/european-vat-rates/
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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    I NEVER SAID IT WASN'T!
    Bornblue keeps deleting the evidence when I post it https://www.vatlive.com/vat-rates/european-vat-rates/
    So why are we blaming the EU for a policy we decided we wanted anyway and supported them in introducing?
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    So why are we blaming the EU for a policy we decided we wanted anyway and supported them in introducing?
    We aren't allowed to lower VAT if we decide it's a good idea because british law is illegally secondary to EUropean law.
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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    I NEVER SAID IT WASN'T!
    Bornblue keeps deleting the evidence when I post it https://www.vatlive.com/vat-rates/european-vat-rates/
    Yes, you did. Quite clearly.

    When Thatcher decided to raise VAT to 15%, that was entirely her decision. Yet you claimed it wasn't her decision but the EU's. Despite the fact she raised it to 15%, 13 years before the EU issued a minimum level.

    You were quite clearly wrong in your assertion and now you're claiming you never said it in the first place.
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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    We aren't allowed to lower VAT if we decide it's a good idea because british law is illegally secondary to EUropean law.
    Which is pretty irrelevant considering that our government clearly don't think it's a good idea considering they choose to put it at 20%. And British law may be secondary to EU law, but that isn't illegal because we agreed to it. As a nation, we democratically voted for a government that decided a common EU minimum rate of VAT was a good idea, likely because it stopped European imports from undercutting British products due to lower VAT rates.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Yes, you did. Quite clearly.

    When Thatcher decided to raise VAT to 15%, that was entirely her decision. Yet you claimed it wasn't her decision but the EU's. Despite the fact she raised it to 15%, 13 years before the EU issued a minimum level.

    You were quite clearly wrong in your assertion and now you're claiming you never said it in the first place.
    Quote me where I said it, you liar. And stop deleting my posts because you dont like the facts.
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    Which is pretty irrelevant considering that our government clearly don't think it's a good idea considering they choose to put it at 20%. And British law may be secondary to EU law, but that isn't illegal because we agreed to it. As a nation, we democratically voted for a government that decided a common EU minimum rate of VAT was a good idea, likely because it stopped European imports from undercutting British products due to lower VAT rates.
    It was illegal under our bill of rights
    "
    no foreign prince, person, prelate, state, or potentate hath, or ought to have, any jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence, or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this realm.
    "

    The people never voted to join a political union, but our politicians deceitfully brought us into such an arrangement.
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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    Quote me where I said it, you liar. And stop deleting my posts because you dont like the facts.
    You stated that the EU raised VAT to 15% in the UK. That was incorrect.

    Thatcher raised VAT to 15% in the UK.

    You then started accusing me of being brainwashed by anti-semites and chucking all sorts of personal insults across, which was a sign of how cogent and convincing your argument was.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You stated that the EU raised VAT to 15% in the UK. That was incorrect.

    Thatcher raised VAT to 15% in the UK.

    You then started accusing me of being brainwashed by anti-semites and chucking all sorts of personal insults across, which was a sign of how cogent and convincing your argument was.
    QUOTE where I said it. And learn to read
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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    QUOTE where I said it. And learn to read
    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    You clearly didnt read my previous answer. VAT clearly is an EU tax as they introduced it and set the minimum level. It doesn't help retailers who are a big part of our economy, but does increase revenue.
    Let's stick with corporation tax, income tax and all the others Labour want to introduce, including on wealth and financial transactions.

    There you go. The EU did not set VAT at 15% here, Thatcher did. It seems you don't really have much regard for facts. Especially given that you claimed:

    Every example from history shows cutting taxes increases revenue, increasing them cuts income.
    I have provided several examples of when raising taxes did increase revenue as well as counter examples to your argument that raising taxes decreases revenue, such as with the VAT rise.

    You then rather bizarrely took it upon yourself to go off on a generic anti-EU rant which in no way related to the topic at hand.
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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    It was illegal under our bill of rights
    "
    no foreign prince, person, prelate, state, or potentate hath, or ought to have, any jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence, or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this realm.
    "

    The people never voted to join a political union, but our politicians deceitfully brought us into such an arrangement.
    Parliament is supreme. Parliament is only bound by legislation and other bodies in so far as it expressly accepts to being. At any point Parliament was able to withdraw from the EU.

    Any law passed by Parliament, such as joining the EU, is by definition legal.
    That's just basic constitutional law. Something you don't seem to have much of a grasp on.
 
 
 
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