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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    It was illegal under our bill of rights
    "
    no foreign prince, person, prelate, state, or potentate hath, or ought to have, any jurisdiction, power, superiority, pre-eminence, or authority, ecclesiastical or spiritual, within this realm.
    "

    The people never voted to join a political union, but our politicians deceitfully brought us into such an arrangement.
    Frankly I'm afraid the world has moved on from the 17th century. We don't have a time machine. You can't go back. And principles that were noble then are simply not fit for the challenges we face today. If as a world we refuse to work with each other to deal with these issues, climate change in particular, we will see the death of millions. And in any case, I certainly don't remember voting for the Bill of Rights.

    Meanwhile, the British people directly voted to join the Common Market by a 2:1 margin - and even then it was widely publicised that they were working towards political and economic union, it wasn't a secret. We then proceeded to vote for various governments which were all happy to accept these developments through treaties and sign them - if we didn't like that, we could have voted them out. There was an overwhelming democratic mandate behind our EU membership for decades and it's only fair that we abide by the rules and honour our commitments. You may not like them, but that doesn't mean you never had a say - merely that you and like-minded people were in a minority.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    There you go. The EU did not set VAT at 15% here, Thatcher did. It seems you don't really have much regard for facts. Especially given that you claimed:



    I have provided several examples of when raising taxes did increase revenue as well as counter examples to your argument that raising taxes decreases revenue, such as with the VAT rise.

    You then rather bizarrely took it upon yourself to go off on a generic anti-EU rant which in no way related to the topic at hand.
    The EU did introduce VAT and the EU do set the minimum rate. None of that is inaccurate and nowhere do I say Thatcher didnt choose to raise it.
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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    The EU did introduce VAT and the EU do set the minimum rate. None of that is inaccurate and nowhere do I say Thatcher didnt choose to raise it. You're such a sad person to spend all night and day pressing refresh refresh refresh so you can glance at what people are saying and misinterpret it then spout lies. Good politics is about listening to people, not being gobby and lying.
    VAT was already 17.5% here at the time the EU set a minimum level of 15%. WE set a minimum level long before the EU did. Your implication was that VAT only existed because of the EU, whereas the truth is that we have VAT because our government wanted it and chose to raise it independently of the EU.

    You are trying to blame the EU for VAT being so high, when the reality is that it's high because of our government choosing to have it at such levels, not because of the EU.

    You don't really care about facts or evidence though do you? You've consistently made incorrect claims without any evidence, such as when you said public sector organisations are 'ten times more inefficient' than private sector organisations or that 'every example of raising taxes reduces revenue' without providing any evidence of either.

    Then you proceeded to chuck personal insults at me, because presumably you found yourself unable to back up any of your claims with evidence.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Parliament is supreme. Parliament is only bound by legislation and other bodies in so far as it expressly accepts to being. At any point Parliament was able to withdraw from the EU.

    Any law passed by Parliament, such as joining the EU, is by definition legal.
    That's just basic constitutional law. Something you don't seem to have much of a grasp on.
    I’m a conservative and I have actually shifted my position from passionate remainer to (since the result) pragmatic leaver*

    But I still agree 100% with the above comment. The uses we were swindled or mis led about the EU is a conspiracy. Heath explained fully what the EU was before we joined in a leader article in the Times as well as in speeches etc

    *(and I mean pragmatic not reluctant- we should leave the Singke market, customs union and ECJ- and slash immigration numbers)
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    VAT was already 17.5% here at the time the EU set a minimum level of 15%. WE set a minimum level long before the EU did. Your implication was that VAT only existed because of the EU, whereas the truth is that we have VAT because our government wanted it and chose to raise it independently of the EU.

    You are trying to blame the EU for VAT being so high, when the reality is that it's high because of our government choosing to have it at such levels, not because of the EU.

    You don't really care about facts or evidence though do you? You've consistently made incorrect claims without any evidence, such as when you said public sector organisations are 'ten times more inefficient' than private sector organisations or that 'every example of raising taxes reduces revenue' without providing any evidence of either.

    Then you proceeded to chuck personal insults at me, because presumably you found yourself unable to back up any of your claims with evidence.
    I noticed you havent apologised for lying that the EU has nothing to do with VAT. So now it was an "implication" I made, not something I said. If you dont actually read what people have written there's no point wasting so much of your time here.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I’m a conservative and I have actually shifted my position from passionate remainer to (since the result) pragmatic leaver*

    But I still agree 100% with the above comment. The uses we were swindled or mis led about the EU is a conspiracy. Heath explained fully what the EU was before we joined in a leader article in the Times as well as in speeches etc

    *(and I mean pragmatic not reluctant- we should leave the Singke market, customs union and ECJ- and slash immigration numbers)
    You know, in principle I was not that opposed to leaving the EU. What I couldn't accept though was the nature of the campaign to leave, as well as it's leaders.

    If the EU campaign wasn't basically a nationalist campaign against immigration, I could have got behind it. As it was, their core argument seemed to be 'if you support the EU you're a britain hating traitor, metropolitan elitist, who talks Britain down' etc.

    At the time I was living in private rented accommodation, earning just about enough to cover my rent, travel and food. Yet apparently I was 'the elite'. Lol.

    Note, i'm not saying the remain camp was totally clean either.
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    (Original post by Hatter_2)
    I noticed you havent apologised for lying that the EU has nothing to do with VAT. So now it was an "implication" I made, not something I said. If you dont actually read what people have written there's no point wasting so much of your time here.
    I have said that our decisions to raise VAT to 15%, then 17.5% and then 20% were nothing to do with the EU. Which is factually correct. It has always been our government who have chosen to raise it, not the EU.

    For some reason you then started accusing me of being brainwashed by anti-semites as well as going on the usual anti-eu rant.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    According to the Times* , May plans to reshuffle her cabinet on October 20... and in my view about time too!

    Boris is widely tipped to be sacked or demoted and a new intake of younger MPs are to be injected into the cabinet.

    Personally I’d welcome something like this:

    Priti Patel- Foreign Sec
    Adam Afriyae- Chancellor
    Michael Gove- First Secretary
    Dominic Raab- Home Secretary
    George Eustice International Trade
    Sarah Wollaston- Health
    Robert Halfon- Education
    Boris- Chairman
    Jeremy Hunt- Business
    Rory Stewart- Defence
    Jesse Norman - Justice
    Jacob Rees Mogg- Transport
    Zac Goldsmith- environment
    Andrea Leadsom- Work and Pensions

    (The sharp eyed among you will notice that I’ve missed out international development, equalities and brexit Secretary...this is because I don’t see the point in them)



    *https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/n...inkId=43247477
    You're against international aid but you want a prominent leftie in Tory terms (Zac Goldsmith) to be at Environment. Confused much?

    I assume you're right about Boris, but party members love him, so she will have a hard time dumping him altogether. He's been a running joke as Fori-Sec.

    I can see Hammond staying on as the Budget geezer, he and May apparently don't get on (it's rare that PMs and Chancellors do) but they agree politically.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    You're against international aid but you want a prominent leftie in Tory terms (Zac Goldsmith) to be at Environment. Confused much?
    Zac is passionate about the environment. I’ve never heard him talk about international aid...
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You know, in principle I was not that opposed to leaving the EU. What I couldn't accept though was the nature of the campaign to leave, as well as it's leaders.

    If the EU campaign wasn't basically a nationalist campaign against immigration, I could have got behind it. As it was, their core argument seemed to be 'if you support the EU you're a britain hating traitor, metropolitan elitist, who talks Britain down' etc.

    At the time I was living in private rented accommodation, earning just about enough to cover my rent, travel and food. Yet apparently I was 'the elite'. Lol.

    Note, i'm not saying the remain camp was totally clean either.
    In the run up to the referendum it was the leave camp that was by far and away the craziest. The anti immigration argument was at least rational. I remember the long fights of arguing with leavers upset that the EU was stopping us from selling unsafe lifts ( I think you might remember that one!)

    That said I think that the crazies are now coming out of the remain side now that the shoe is on the other foot. Although a lot of it is just the usual anti Tory crowd using the EU as a stock to beat the Tories with.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    In the run up to the referendum it was the leave camp that was by far and away the craziest. The anti immigration argument was at least rational. I remember the long fights of arguing with leavers upset that the EU was stopping us from selling unsafe lifts ( I think you might remember that one!)

    That said I think that the crazies are now coming out of the remain side now that the shoe is on the other foot. Although a lot of it is just the usual anti Tory crowd using the EU as a stock to beat the Tories with.
    I still think the leave camp are like that and I think they've cynically promised things no one can hold them to account for.

    For example when the Lib Dems promised to abolish tuition fees, they were held accountable at the ballot box. There's no opportunity to hold leave accountable as leave don't form a government.

    Meh, I think it's a good thing to stick it to the Tories, in general.
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    Just sack Boris
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I still think the leave camp are like that and I think they've cynically promised things no one can hold them to account for.

    For example when the Lib Dems promised to abolish tuition fees, they were held accountable at the ballot box. There's no opportunity to hold leave accountable as leave don't form a government.

    Meh, I think it's a good thing to stick it to the Tories, in general.
    Vote Leave is loosely accountable in that they’re MPs who can be rejected at the ballot box
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Vote Leave is loosely accountable in that they’re MPs who can be rejected at the ballot box
    They are not accountable because a general election is not between a Leave supporter and a Remain supporter.

    Those in the Tory Party will be held to account but only because the Conservatives are in government. If Brexit is a complete disaster, Kate Hoey will do jolly nicely thank you.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    They are not accountable because a general election is not between a Leave supporter and a Remain supporter.

    Those in the Tory Party will be held to account but only because the Conservatives are in government. If Brexit is a complete disaster, Kate Hoey will do jolly nicely thank you.
    They still have the option to e voted out particularly if they have a canny opponent. Informal pacts and such can be arranged - eg Zac losing his seat temporarily at the by election.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    They still have the option to e voted out particularly if they have a canny opponent. Informal pacts and such can be arranged - eg Zac losing his seat temporarily at the by election.
    It's not the same and it's not proper accountability.

    Even on here we've had posters saying 'oh well we never said we would give £350 million a week more to the NHS, that was just a suggestion, leave don't form a government'

    When that £350 million extra a week doesn't go to the NHS, no one can be held accountable by the electorate.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I still think the leave camp are like that and I think they've cynically promised things no one can hold them to account for.

    For example when the Lib Dems promised to abolish tuition fees, they were held accountable at the ballot box. There's no opportunity to hold leave accountable as leave don't form a government.

    Meh, I think it's a good thing to stick it to the Tories, in general.
    The Lib Dems stayed in government for 5 years between breaking their promise on tuition fees and losing seats in the next election...

    Sure, that could be called accountable, but what is the point in accountability if the system is so remarkably resistent to a change in public opinion.
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    (Original post by mojojojo101)
    The Lib Dems stayed in government for 5 years between breaking their promise on tuition fees and losing seats in the next election...

    Sure, that could be called accountable, but what is the point in accountability if the system is so remarkably resistent to a change in public opinion.
    Yeah but when the five years went the Lib Dem’s got butchered. If brexit turns out to. E a disaster I can see Leave MPs going the same way if they have a half decent opppsition.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Yeah but when the five years went the Lib Dem’s got butchered. If brexit turns out to. E a disaster I can see Leave MPs going the same way if they have a half decent opppsition.
    It's arguably already happened at the last election. Was prob a big factor in places like Kensington going labour. The Tories lost their first majority since 1992.


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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Yeah but when the five years went the Lib Dem’s got butchered. If brexit turns out to. E a disaster I can see Leave MPs going the same way if they have a half decent opppsition.
    In thos case it wasnt so bad, what with the Lib Dems being a junior partner in a coalition that didnt really take them into account that much.

    In principal though there is very little that can be done about an unpopular government once they are in power.
 
 
 
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