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Universal Basic Services Watch

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    Very keen supporter of the plan. It's very simple. Investing in public services leads to a more productive workforce. Promoting public transport means more people can get to work. Internet access is a necessity for life now. Water is obviously a necessity. Housing suffers badly because for many it's seen as an investment and they'd prefer to see their value rise than promote house building. The increased shafting of renters by landlords due to the housing shortage should see this as an absolute necessity.

    I can't see any negatives if done properly. This doesn't disincentivise working. Out of those only the food is successful for "competition" but the rise of the foodbanks shows how even a basic diet (and school meals for children) should be a minimum. The logistics of setting this up stick out as the problem, as well as the previously mentioned unpopularity.
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    (Original post by CoffeeGeek)
    Do you have any proof that this is directly linked to welfare reforms? Or are we assuming that these deaths must be caused by the welfare reforms?



    By stating the existence of the benefit system with a purpose to help those who cannot provide themselves does not mean I support it.
    Well I've made two logical jumps here;

    a) how the change in welfare reforms has coincided with the leap in deaths from people on welfare
    b) the people who have had their benefits stopped and hence are penniless and starving to death are connected as you cannot purchase food without money.

    Plus all the mistakes with ATOS/Maximus, the administrative errors, the sheer volume of appeals which have nullified any supposed saving. Again, the 55p per minute for the UC helpline sums it up nicely.
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    (Original post by CoffeeGeek)



    That is true, compared to some you are doing alright. It unfortunately is and the state intervening in everything won't make things better for everyone.
    This is not my preferred option trust me, but what is your solution?

    What the Tory government is doing is making things worse, much worse and that is without even getting into the relentless assault on the poor from the right wing press.
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    Well I've made two logical jumps here;

    a) how the change in welfare reforms has coincided with the leap in deaths from people on welfare
    b) the people who have had their benefits stopped and hence are penniless and starving to death are connected as you cannot purchase food without money.

    Plus all the mistakes with ATOS/Maximus, the administrative errors, the sheer volume of appeals which have nullified any supposed saving. Again, the 55p per minute for the UC helpline sums it up nicely.
    These may seem logical to you, which is of course debatable. But these are definitely assumptions because I asked for evidence to prove that what you've said is correct, that there is a direct link to welfare reforms and these deaths you're talking about.

    (Original post by mojojojo101)
    This is not my preferred option trust me, but what is your solution?

    What the Tory government is doing is making things worse, much worse and that is without even getting into the relentless assault on the poor from the right wing press.
    I'm glad to see that this isn't your opinion. I admit there's no silver bullet but things such as the living wage should be increasing, giving pay rises to those on low pay.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Institute for Global Prosperity has come out with a report calling for free housing, food, transport and access to the internet to be given to British citizens in a massive expansion of the welfare state as an alternative to a basic income. Essentially expanding the principles of the NHS to other areas of the economy.

    https://www.ucl.ac.uk/bartlett/igp/n...basic-services

    https://www.theguardian.com/business...P=share_btn_tw

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...ces-inequality

    John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said the recommendations would “help inform Labour’s thinking”. Labour are increasingly the party of the future with all the new ideas :beard:

    Brilliant idea. Should totally replace the welfare state. People who are unemployed or on low incomes should receive guaranteed access to basic services rather than direct transfer payments. This will incentivise work as people look to increase their incomes, reduce instances of fraud and ensure that people on welfare don’t spend money on things they can’t afford thus ending up in serious cashflow problems.
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    (Original post by CoffeeGeek)
    I don't see what warrants this level of state intervention. People can surely provide for themselves and people who cannot there is a safety net that already exists to help them provide for themselves. The costs of doing this is most likely not cheap, and I hope someone doesn't reply by saying "tax the rich" - you can only tax people so much before you won't get anything. The exact same people you're trying to help are the people who will foot the bill.
    This could work as a cheaper alternative to the welfare state provided that it actually replaced the current benefits system rather than topped it up.
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    (Original post by Sycatonne23)
    This could work as a cheaper alternative to the welfare state provided that it actually replaced the current benefits system rather than topped it up.
    I don't think it can totally replace it. Because there would still be some things needed such as disability benefits but you're not wrong here.
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    I fear this sort of thing is what has caused many of the problems we now face, the NHS struggles because the jurisdiction of the health service is no longer to make the sick better, but to act as social carers when really this sort of thing is the job of the family.

    There are no free lunches and you should work for your keep.
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    (Original post by CoffeeGeek)
    I'm glad to see that this isn't your opinion. I admit there's no silver bullet but things such as the living wage should be increasing, giving pay rises to those on low pay.
    And what counts as evidence? A criminal investigation?
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    And what counts as evidence? A criminal investigation?
    Facts that can be used to prove that an argument is valid. Your argument contains assumptions, can't see evidence.
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    Who will foot the bill for this?
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    :ninja:

    A spectra is haunting Britain.

    That ucl link you posted reads like this...

    https://medium.com/@s8mb/im-a-neolib...o-b809a2a588d6

    ...except the same reasoning leads to a dismissal of such dependency on liberal markets and more support for state intervention. Given the melt down of neo-liberalism I'd say ucl makes more sense (also I am a leftist). Also it is not like Thatcher didn't get any of her inspiration from an 18th century philosopher... As long as capitalism is the dominant mode of production socialism, and by extension communism, will always be around criticising it. Socialism is capitalism's shadow, it goes where ever capitalism goes.

    I'd say it is more boring none-communist Social Democratic. None of this withering away of the state stuff, sadly.

    http://stumblingandmumbling.typepad....democracy.html

    My preferred cause of (Marxist) action is centred around worker self-directed enterprises, rather than heavily centralised statist social democracy.

    https://thenextsystem.org/start-with...ed-enterprises
    https://thenextsystem.org/sites/defa.../RickWolff.pdf

    Labour are ahead in this area as well.

    https://www.facebook.com/james.doran...type=2&theater

    https://newsocialist.org.uk/labours-...ership-report/

    Ideas of the future

    I’m genuinely trying to look at this with an open mind.

    Ok how would a democratically run business work? How would anything get done? How is this different to those hippy communes that people set up which all failed miserably?
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I’m genuinely trying to look at this with an open mind.

    Ok how would a democratically run business work? How would anything get done? How is this different to those hippy communes that people set up which all failed miserably?
    The Kibbutzim movement in Israel was rather successful.
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    (Original post by Sycatonne23)
    Brilliant idea. Should totally replace the welfare state. People who are unemployed or on low incomes should receive guaranteed access to basic services rather than direct transfer payments.
    Nope, it should be like the NHS. Everyone pays into it and everyone gets to use it.

    (Original post by Ganjaweed Rebel)
    I fear this sort of thing is what has caused many of the problems we now face, the NHS struggles because the jurisdiction of the health service is no longer to make the sick better, but to act as social carers when really this sort of thing is the job of the family.

    There are no free lunches and you should work for your keep.
    How is a family member supposed to provide expert social care? Also if you haven't noticed capitalism has totally atomised and broken up families. It's totally normal for children to now move miles away once they become adults, if not to a different country. Gone are the days when large family units would stay in the same geographic area. As soon as you reach 18 you are supposed to push off to university and explore the world, then get a full time job. I'm more traditional in that I am 25 and still living with my parents, but I am considered a social anomaly and loser. The time when large family clans would take the role of social care of the elderly are long gone. Also people used to die in poverty in old age. Nature is brutal, old animals just drop dead and die. You can advocate for that kind of barbarism if you like. Personally if we are going to have high capitalist division of labour I want to to look after the elderly.

    The nuclear family unit combined with children being expected to fly the nest means you can't familial social care.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The Kibbutzim movement in Israel was rather successful.
    Never heard of it before. Doubtful if it can replicated though (essentially religious nationalists colonising the ‘promised land’)

    From my reply to your pre edited version:

    Very much for improving people’s lives- just has to work in practise and in theory which, to me, this doesn’t seem to. I’m not a complete nay sayer though- I’m a big fan of a universal basic income (as long as it’s capped so that it’s always better to work) for instance and I think we could tinker with our institutions somewhat.

    That said- healthy skepticism or even cynicism of radical new ideas is no bad thing. Most of our ideas have evolved organically because simply they work and have tried and tested the results. Tinkering with this on balance is more likely to make things worse rather than better. Just look at films- how often is a reboot or a sequel better than the original?
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    (Original post by CoffeeGeek)
    Facts that can be used to prove that an argument is valid. Your argument contains assumptions, can't see evidence.
    Thousands of claimants get into debt, get behind with their rent and risk eviction due to flaws in universal credit, landlords and politicians want the system overhauled. The tendency of many low-paid people to live on a hand to mouth basis, and not save money for a*rainy day*(either due to not having any disposable income to save, or due to choosing not to), means that there is often still a residual problem of only having one or two weeks of income from their previous job to cover the costs of their first month of unemployment. This means many end up going without basic essentials while waiting for their first Universal Credit payment to arrive. Many tenants are at risk of eviction, and some turn to*loan sharks. Landlords and politicians, claim tenants are getting into debt, rent arrears and facing eviction because of flaws in Universal credit and are demanding an overhaul of the system. Ministers are strongly advised to slow things down and to give more support to vulnerable claimants who struggle with monthly payments and the on-line system.*Guardian*research found:

    Eight out of 10 tenants in social housing put onto UC fall into rent arrears or increase pre-existing arrears.

    Families that cannot manage the required 42-day wait before the first payment are routinely referred to*food banks*by housing associations and local MPs.

    Processing delays additional to the formal wait force some claimants to wait as long as 60 days for a first payment.

    The number of private landlords willing to take on benefit recipients declined sharply due to uncertainty over the system.[46]

    An official inquiry has been launched due to problems with universal credit
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    Due to this - UC full rollout has been delayed.
    https://www.google.co.uk/amp/www.ind...106.html%3Famp
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    I’m genuinely trying to look at this with an open mind.

    Ok how would a democratically run business work? How would anything get done? How is this different to those hippy communes that people set up which all failed miserably?
    To be honest. I can't give a confirmative answer. In times of industrial social upheaval there have always been factions that try to make this kind of thing. Whether they be the Factory Commities in early 20th century Russia or syndicalists in spain in the 1930s.

    A modern example, that falls short of the wsde ideal, but is a step in the right direction is the Mondogon corporation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation

    It still exists in the context of capitalism but it differs from the standard model of how capitalist corporations have to behave.

    "Take the most advanced case: Mondragon. It’s worker owned, it’s not worker managed, although the management does come from the workforce often, but it’s in a market system and they still exploit workers in South America, and they do things that are harmful to the society as a whole and they have no choice. If you’re in a system where you must make profit in order to survive, you're compelled to ignore negative externalities, effects on others." ~ Chomsky

    But I can't help but be a leftist and this seems like the only viable route to socialism that wouldn't risk the totalitarianism like we saw with the lenninisms. I'm actually conservative in that I am wary of revolutions, I only think violence is justified in self defence. We don't know what will happen we should be test the waters so to speak. Work it out as we go along. We can't just build a deterministic blue print in how to get to socialism. The kind of program outline by Professor Wolf seems like worth trying to me. It's never been given a proper chance and has been crushed from both the left and right whenever it has been tried.


    (Original post by Davij038)

    That said- healthy skepticism or even cynicism of radical new ideas is no bad thing. Most of our ideas have evolved organically because simply they work and have tried and tested the results.
    Capitalism comes from such a process. I see no reason why another system of production can not arise in the same way.
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    (Original post by TimmonaPortella)
    Limitless free stuff for you on the taxpayer's dime is not a 'new idea'.
    I am a tax payer.

    Yeah, right wing market capitalism isn't a new idea either. It;s been hegemonic for decades and it is ****ing up and not delivering the goods.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    I am a tax payer.

    Yeah, right wing market capitalism isn't a new idea either. It;s been hegemonic for decades and it is ****ing up and not delivering the goods.
    How much more are you willing to be taxed?
 
 
 
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