Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

B1287 - Protection of Children Act 2017 Watch

    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    No, the study linked in the notes and studies linked by DayneD89 in the comments suffer from the same problems: poor methodology unable to prove the legal changes cause declines. In all countries evidence has been presented for there were huge changes to society, for instance, experiencing the fall of Communism, meaning for the link to exist there would have to be evidence to show that it was liberalism of pornography which caused the decline in child sex attacks. And the change in pornography laws were wider reaching than a minor change to simulated child pornography, to justify this legal change the studies would have to show why allowing simulated child pornography causes the change over liberalising all pornography. It would make more sense that child sex attacks have decreased because pornography is being used to express sexual frustration by paedophiles, the age of the women in the pornography is not important to the release of sexual expression. The studies neither provide evidence to show legalising simulated child pornography would cause a decrease in child sex attacks nor prove that liberalising pornography laws decreases sex attacks.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DayneD89)
    Your argument is that the images may be so realistic that higher rates of actual sexual assault against children are better?
    There is no evidence in any of the studies proving that simulated child porn causes a fall in child sex attacks. It makes more sense that all porn causes a decrease in child sex attacks because it acts as an outage point for sexual frustration, the ages of the actors in the porn do not matter. It is the act of seeing sex which causes any decrease in child sex attacks, not the liberalisation of simulated child pornography.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    s of
    (Original post by Jacob E)
    No, the study linked in the notes and studies linked by DayneD89 in the comments suffer from the same problems: poor methodology unable to prove the legal changes cause declines. In all countries evidence has been presented for there were huge changes to society, for instance, experiencing the fall of Communism, meaning for the link to exist there would have to be evidence to show that it was liberalism of pornography which caused the decline in child sex attacks. And the change in pornography laws were wider reaching than a minor change to simulated child pornography, to justify this legal change the studies would have to show why allowing simulated child pornography causes the change over liberalising all pornography. It would make more sense that child sex attacks have decreased because pornography is being used to express sexual frustration by paedophiles, the age of the women in the pornography is not important to the release of sexual expression. The studies neither provide evidence to show legalising simulated child pornography would cause a decrease in child sex attacks nor prove that liberalising pornography laws decreases sex attacks.
    It's hard to find any society that isn't undergoing huge changes at any stretch of time. It can be seen from the other side though when stricter controls are put on access to pornography sexual assaults rose (iirc that's one of the findings of the 1970s UK study) which ads weight to the argument that it is the access to pornography that is making the difference in terms of assaults.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jacob E)
    There is no evidence in any of the studies proving that simulated child porn causes a fall in child sex attacks. It makes more sense that all porn causes a decrease in child sex attacks because it acts as an outage point for sexual frustration, the ages of the actors in the porn do not matter. It is the act of seeing sex which causes any decrease in child sex attacks, not the liberalisation of simulated child pornography.
    At the very least we don't see a rise in cases of child molestation due to these changes when they have taken effect in other countries. There is no data that I'm aware of where a country has legalised sexual images of children separately from other forms of porn but I'll go back and see if I can find any more evidence about that particular possibility. Even without that proven though I think that removing a victimless crime is a good step to take.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DayneD89)
    s of
    It's hard to find any society that isn't undergoing huge changes at any stretch of time. It can be seen from the other side though when stricter controls are put on access to pornography sexual assaults rose (iirc that's one of the findings of the 1970s UK study) which ads weight to the argument that it is the access to pornography that is making the difference in terms of assaults.

    At the very least we don't see a rise in cases of child molestation due to these changes when they have taken effect in other countries. There is no data that I'm aware of where a country has legalised sexual images of children separately from other forms of porn but I'll go back and see if I can find any more evidence about that particular possibility. Even without that proven though I think that removing a victimless crime is a good step to take.
    When there is no evidence of a country liberalising depicted child pornography, to claim there will be a reduction in child sexual assaults after legalising depicted child pornography is wrong, it is deceitful to MHoC members. And claiming depicted child pornography is a victimless crime is wrong, legalisation of depicted child pornography acts to normalise it and paedophiles will use its legalisation to justify possessing depicted child pornography. Paedophiles believing their thoughts are right and having more child pornography to turn themselves on with will likely increase the rates of paedophilia in society.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jacob E)
    When there is no evidence of a country liberalising depicted child pornography, to claim there will be a reduction in child sexual assaults after legalising depicted child pornography is wrong, it is deceitful to MHoC members. And claiming depicted child pornography is a victimless crime is wrong, legalisation of depicted child pornography acts to normalise it and paedophiles will use its legalisation to justify possessing depicted child pornography. Paedophiles believing their thoughts are right and having more child pornography to turn themselves on with will likely increase the rates of paedophilia in society.
    You start your point saying it's deceitful to claim that this would lead to a reduction in cases of sexual assault against children because my examples do not perfectly mirror this bill then end your argument by claiming this would increase attacks against children while not giving any examples of that. Which one is it?

    I think there is a clear distinction here. Images that depict real children or act that lead to the harm of real children have a victim and would not be touched by this bill. Acts, where no child has been harmed in their creation would be acceptable under this act. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that this will normalise paedophilia and/or lead to more cases of sexual assault on children? ALl of the data that I have seen that suggests that can be summed up by "most people who have committed acts of sexual assault on children have also accessed pornography that includes minors". I'm sure you can understand why I find that argument unconvincing.

    We have to accept that paedophilia exists, and I say that as a parent so I obviously don't like the idea. That said it can be a natural sexuality and one that can't be helped or changed by the individual any more than being homosexual can be. Take the case of the man (i forget his name but if it becomes relevant I'm sure that I can find the case) in the US who developed sexual urges towards children after undergoing brain surgery for epilepsy. There is no evidence that he had the same feelings before the surgery and after he was discovered he was quickly put on a medication that kills his libido completely as the only option to remove the urges. It being a criminal matter caused him to hide the changes he was undergoing. Under this act, he would have had a legal outlet for his sexual frustrations and may even have been able to seek help without risk of prosecution before any children were harmed.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DayneD89)
    You start your point saying it's deceitful to claim that this would lead to a reduction in cases of sexual assault against children because my examples do not perfectly mirror this bill then end your argument by claiming this would increase attacks against children while not giving any examples of that. Which one is it?

    I think there is a clear distinction here. Images that depict real children or act that lead to the harm of real children have a victim and would not be touched by this bill. Acts, where no child has been harmed in their creation would be acceptable under this act. Do you have any evidence to back up your claim that this will normalise paedophilia and/or lead to more cases of sexual assault on children? ALl of the data that I have seen that suggests that can be summed up by "most people who have committed acts of sexual assault on children have also accessed pornography that includes minors". I'm sure you can understand why I find that argument unconvincing.

    We have to accept that paedophilia exists, and I say that as a parent so I obviously don't like the idea. That said it can be a natural sexuality and one that can't be helped or changed by the individual any more than being homosexual can be. Take the case of the man (i forget his name but if it becomes relevant I'm sure that I can find the case) in the US who developed sexual urges towards children after undergoing brain surgery for epilepsy. There is no evidence that he had the same feelings before the surgery and after he was discovered he was quickly put on a medication that kills his libido completely as the only option to remove the urges. It being a criminal matter caused him to hide the changes he was undergoing. Under this act, he would have had a legal outlet for his sexual frustrations and may even have been able to seek help without risk of prosecution before any children were harmed.
    There is a distinction, it is wrong to claim there will be a reduction in child sex attacks because there is no evidence to prove it, the end part is an individual opinion of what will happen. In the absence of evidence on both sides of the argument the best option is to do nothing because the risk of experimenting with children's safety is not worth the chance of increasing paedophilia caused by legalising depicted child porn. And that claim is wrong, claiming most individuals who have committed acts of sexual assault on children have also accessed pornography that includes minors cannot be made because the methodology in everything you linked does not include a way to do that; it is speculation.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jacob E)
    There is a distinction, it is wrong to claim there will be a reduction in child sex attacks because there is no evidence to prove it, the end part is an individual opinion of what will happen. In the absence of evidence on both sides of the argument the best option is to do nothing because the risk of experimenting with children's safety is not worth the chance of increasing paedophilia caused by legalising depicted child porn. And that claim is wrong, claiming most individuals who have committed acts of sexual assault on children have also accessed pornography that includes minors cannot be made because the methodology in everything you linked does not include a way to do that; it is speculation.
    There isn't a perfect replica of what would happen in this bill from another country. That doesn't mean there is no evidence. The most widely seen evidence comes from cases of sexual assault against adults where providing a legal outlet for sexual urges lowers the rates of illegal options being used. There are so many examples that even after detailing examples from multiple countries I'm able to pull up another country to illustrate this point again. Here is a map of internet availability in India:



    Here is a map of rape rates across India (adjusted for population):



    Notice that areas that have a greater access to the internet (and thus free pornography) also have lower rates of sexual assaults. The same can be seen in most countries with the widening of access to the internet sexual assaults fall.

    There are fewer examples of that trend being extended to children, however, there is no evidence at all of cases of sexual assault against children raising after that I can find. As the law stands at the moment there is no distinction between viewing an image that doesn't contain any children and one that does. This bill helps draw a clearer distinction between what is acceptable to society and which is not. At the moment there is no legal outlet available so it is not surprising that those who commit sexual acts against children also viewed images online. That line of argument does not take into account either the people who viewed pornographic material including minors who did not go on to molest children or the people who would have stopped at that point if the actions they had already taken were not already a serious crime.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DayneD89)
    There isn't a perfect replica of what would happen in this bill from another country. That doesn't mean there is no evidence. The most widely seen evidence comes from cases of sexual assault against adults where providing a legal outlet for sexual urges lowers the rates of illegal options being used. There are so many examples that even after detailing examples from multiple countries I'm able to pull up another country to illustrate this point again. Here is a map of internet availability in India:

    Here is a map of rape rates across India (adjusted for population):



    Notice that areas that have a greater access to the internet (and thus free pornography) also have lower rates of sexual assaults. The same can be seen in most countries with the widening of access to the internet sexual assaults fall.

    There are fewer examples of that trend being extended to children, however, there is no evidence at all of cases of sexual assault against children raising after that I can find. As the law stands at the moment there is no distinction between viewing an image that doesn't contain any children and one that does. This bill helps draw a clearer distinction between what is acceptable to society and which is not. At the moment there is no legal outlet available so it is not surprising that those who commit sexual acts against children also viewed images online. That line of argument does not take into account either the people who viewed pornographic material including minors who did not go on to molest children or the people who would have stopped at that point if the actions they had already taken were not already a serious crime.
    The link from pornography lowering sexual assault to depicted child pornography lowering child sexual assault is not straightforward because what it is about pornography that lowers sexual assault has not been identified. If it is the act of sex in pornography believing depicted child pornography would lower sexual assault against children would not be true. I do not believe the risk to children is worth the experiment to see if legalising depicted child pornography lowers sexual assault against children when the logical link is not there.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jacob E)
    The link from pornography lowering sexual assault to depicted child pornography lowering child sexual assault is not straightforward because what it is about pornography that lowers sexual assault has not been identified. If it is the act of sex in pornography believing depicted child pornography would lower sexual assault against children would not be true. I do not believe the risk to children is worth the experiment to see if legalising depicted child pornography lowers sexual assault against children when the logical link is not there.
    I have no evidence for the following statement, but I think it's pretty obvious as to what makes access to pornography lower cases of sexual assault. When given a legal outlet for sexual desired people will take that option over the illegal and morally objectionable option of committing sexual assault. If that assumption is true then this can be safely extended to children.

    I'm sorry, I don't follow the bit in bold, could you rephrase that argument?

    If access to pornography involving minors led to higher rates of sexual assault on children then we would have seen increases since 1990. The bith of the internet has so probably seen the biggest increase in access to material like child porn that mankind has seen. Yet in areas with access to the internet cases of child porn are falling. We've already seen that in some of the data I've already posted but heres another that demonstrates this point.



    I'm finding it surprisingly hard to find actual figures even for reported cases of sexual assault of children but I'll keep looking and I feel confident that this trend of falling rates of child sexual abuse at about the same time as access to the internet will hold in the majority of countries and it will be unlikely, if not impossiable without an external factor, to find a country where the opposite holds true.
    • Political Ambassador
    Offline

    13
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by DayneD89)
    I have no evidence for the following statement, but I think it's pretty obvious as to what makes access to pornography lower cases of sexual assault. When given a legal outlet for sexual desired people will take that option over the illegal and morally objectionable option of committing sexual assault. If that assumption is true then this can be safely extended to children.

    I'm sorry, I don't follow the bit in bold, could you rephrase that argument?

    If access to pornography involving minors led to higher rates of sexual assault on children then we would have seen increases since 1990. The bith of the internet has so probably seen the biggest increase in access to material like child porn that mankind has seen. Yet in areas with access to the internet cases of child porn are falling. We've already seen that in some of the data I've already posted but heres another that demonstrates this point.



    I'm finding it surprisingly hard to find actual figures even for reported cases of sexual assault of children but I'll keep looking and I feel confident that this trend of falling rates of child sexual abuse at about the same time as access to the internet will hold in the majority of countries and it will be unlikely, if not impossiable without an external factor, to find a country where the opposite holds true.
    If the part of pornography that leads to a fall in sex crimes is graphic penetration scenes, the age of the actor in the pornography does not matter meaning that to believe legalising depicted child pornography lowers child sex crimes is wrong. The point is this, I neither believe showing children in pornography will lower sex crimes against children nor do I believe old people in pornography lowers sex crimes against the elderly. What I think lowers sex crimes is seeing graphic sex which can triggers the parts of the minds that turn humans on, paedophiles can obtain this with lolitta being a fetish. I do not accept legalising depicted child pornography would lower sex crimes against children in the same way pornography lowers all sex crimes.
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Jacob E)
    If the part of pornography that leads to a fall in sex crimes is graphic penetration scenes, the age of the actor in the pornography does not matter meaning that to believe legalising depicted child pornography lowers child sex crimes is wrong. The point is this, I neither believe showing children in pornography will lower sex crimes against children nor do I believe old people in pornography lowers sex crimes against the elderly. What I think lowers sex crimes is seeing graphic sex which can triggers the parts of the minds that turn humans on, paedophiles can obtain this with lolitta being a fetish. I do not accept legalising depicted child pornography would lower sex crimes against children in the same way pornography lowers all sex crimes.
    Fair enough. I understand and respect your opinion on this.I feel like unless I can find evidence linking child porn specifically to child abuse I'm unlikely to win you over. It has been an enjoyable debate though.

    The only evidence I have as the last counter (for now) to your claim that access to child porn may have the same effect as the availability of other porn has made is that Japan made child porn illegal in 2014. 2016 saw the highest amount of cases of child abuse since records begun in 2004, up 46.5% on the previous year. [source]
    Offline

    6
    ReputationRep:
    An aye for now
    • Community Assistant
    • Political Ambassador
    • Welcome Squad
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    Does someone want to explain to me how the change in legislation caused child sex crimes to decrease?
    • Wiki Support Team
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by CoffeeGeek)
    Does someone want to explain to me how the change in legislation caused child sex crimes to decrease?
    In the same way, it did for preventing rape. Given a legal outlet for sexual frustration people will take that option over the one that risks their freedom. Some people have sexual desires around children. That's not exactly a thought I'm comfortable with as a parent but I'd rather they took those urges out in a way that doesn't harm any children than by hurting children. This would also open the door to them being able to seek help without so much fear of prosecution. I doubt the social stigma will ever go away but in this case, that's probably a good thing.
    Online

    20
    ReputationRep:
    Abstain. I'm not convinced that a simulation of lawful sex leading to a reduction in unlawful iterations of that form of sex necessarily implies that a simulation of sex which is unlawful per se leads to a reduction in that form.
    • Community Assistant
    • Thread Starter
    Offline

    21
    ReputationRep:
    This bill has entered division.
 
 
 
TSR Support Team

We have a brilliant team of more than 60 Support Team members looking after discussions on The Student Room, helping to make it a fun, safe and useful place to hang out.

Updated: October 17, 2017
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    What newspaper do you read/prefer?
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.