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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    "Saying what you had to say" here meaning claiming I'm a racist while firing a load of racial slurs?
    Stop reaching. Anyone with basic reading skills would see I was listing what people call gypsies. I even said I don't understand treatment against gypsies in the same post. You seem angry. Having a bad night? 😯
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    And where did I claim you were a racist?!!!
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    (Original post by Salt Queen)
    Don't even act like you care about gypsies. Five minutes from now you'll be calling them pikeys and white trash and riff raff like everyone else does. I personally don't see what the issue is, they're just caravans like Wtf. Must be issues stemming from England's long nasty history with Irish and Catholics aka white people problems so I'll just see myself out with my teacup. 😚☕

    Ugh and before any soul here gets triggered, I don't mean OP per se uses these kinds of slurs. 😑
    The issue is that they leave where they've been parked an absolute shithole that the council(and ultimately the local residents via taxation) have to pay to clean up. If they left places clean and tidy I doubt many people would care.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    The issue is that they leave where they've been parked an absolute shithole that the council(and ultimately the local residents via taxation) have to pay to clean up. If they left places clean and tidy I doubt many people would care.
    True ...when it applies...
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    (Original post by Salt Queen)
    True ...when it applies...
    I can only speak anecdotally but there's been 3 or 4 times in my local area that I can remember and every time has been the same.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    I can only speak anecdotally but there's been 3 or 4 times in my local area that I can remember and every time has been the same.
    Yes it is annoying and they flee before they get fined
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    (Original post by Salt Queen)
    Oh right, but I do know they knock down Irish travellers houses and slur them off but I'm sure for ethnic reasons east-European gypsies are treated badly but assuming op is discussing reverse racism...he's on about the white gypsies.
    My best friend a Roma gypsy her house is always spotless clean she got a degree in nursing.She never smoke taken drugs or drink alcohol. She was virgin to she got married.

    i don't understand why some people dislike Roma gypsies British ones I mean they have strong family values and morals.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    The issue is that they leave where they've been parked an absolute shithole that the council(and ultimately the local residents via taxation) have to pay to clean up. If they left places clean and tidy I doubt many people would care.

    That is mainly Irish Travels not Roma Gypsies most British Roma live on caravan sites which they own or council run. Some live in house and even go university and have professional jobs.
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    Discrimination against gypsies is more socially accepted than against other ethnicities. So I accept the premise of the OP.

    But there is racism among travellers towards those who are settled. They have an insulting name for the rest of us, gadjos. So the racism and discrimination feeds on itself.

    I was talking to a paramedic the other day and she told me they have to get police protection in traveller camps when they attend emergencies like cardiac arrests. If they die they are often attacked, accused of killing the person.

    That is how wide the divide between gypsies and non gypsies can be, culturally. Gadjos who are doing their job, trying to save lives are so mistrusted that if someone dies they are believed to have deliberately killed them. Extraordinary. It is a sub culture that consciously sets itself apart, and that feeds back into the dominant culture, feeding racism and prejudice.
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    Discrimination against gypsies is more socially accepted than against other ethnicities. So I accept the premise of the OP.

    But there is racism among travellers towards those who are settled. They have an insulting name for the rest of us, gadjos. So the racism and discrimination feeds on itself.

    I was talking to a paramedic the other day and she told me they have to get police protection in traveller camps when they attend emergencies like cardiac arrests. If they die they are often attacked, accused of killing the person.

    That is how wide the divide between gypsies and non gypsies can be, culturally. Gadjos who are doing their job, trying to save lives are so mistrusted that if someone dies they are believed to have deliberately killed them. Extraordinary. It is a sub culture that consciously sets itself apart, and that feeds back into the dominant culture, feeding racism and prejudice.
    The people i think your talking about are Irish Travelers not British Roma they are both different groups of people. They don't speak the same language or come from same origin.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...a-8609751.html
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    (Original post by astutehirstute)
    Discrimination against gypsies is more socially accepted than against other ethnicities. So I accept the premise of the OP.

    But there is racism among travellers towards those who are settled. They have an insulting name for the rest of us, gadjos. So the racism and discrimination feeds on itself.

    I was talking to a paramedic the other day and she told me they have to get police protection in traveller camps when they attend emergencies like cardiac arrests. If they die they are often attacked, accused of killing the person.

    That is how wide the divide between gypsies and non gypsies can be, culturally. Gadjos who are doing their job, trying to save lives are so mistrusted that if someone dies they are believed to have deliberately killed them. Extraordinary. It is a sub culture that consciously sets itself apart, and that feeds back into the dominant culture, feeding racism and prejudice.
    Would you enjoy being bulled at school and your education spoiled being because a gypsy. Here a film of a young Roma gentleman who got into Oxford University talking about his community.

    https://vimeo.com/3092829
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    (Original post by anarchism101)
    But instead he said it about gypsies, so that means it's all fine, right? No need for Labour to descend into bitter internal war for years over antiziganism (unlike the hairtrigger response to anything possibly construable as antisemitic), just like there was no need for the Tories to take any action when one of their MPs called gypsies "scum" who "do not deserve the same human rights as my decent constituents".
    I believe there is serious anti-gypsy racism in this country. I remember when I first moved to this country I was shocked by billboard ads in the tube for My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding which had the tagline, "Bigger, Fatter, Gypsier" and a picture of a handicapped child.

    It was something that wouldn't be out of place in the Third Reich and I found it deeply racist and ugly.

    https://alanhorne7.files.wordpress.c...209_102039.jpg



    Having said that, do you not think it is a valid comment to point out that the reputation of the Traveller/Roma/gypsy community is negatively affected by the behaviour of people within the community? I think the issue is not gypsy ethnicity, obviously. But the Traveller lifestyle is highly regressive. Criminality is rife. Education is spurned. Many of these communities have nothing but contempt for planning laws and the legal-democratic order that underpins said laws.

    We should not be afraid to speak out against regressive cultural practices.
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    (Original post by looloo2134)
    That is mainly Irish Travels not Roma Gypsies most British Roma live on caravan sites which they own or council run. Some live in house and even go university and have professional jobs.
    Don't get me wrong I know they're not all bad. But when every single encounter you've had with them has been negative it's hard to keep an open mind.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Don't get me wrong I know they're not all bad. But when every single encounter you've had with them has been negative it's hard to keep an open mind.
    I would be very interested to hear of these encounters (genuinely). What happened in these interactions?
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    I would be very interested to hear of these encounters (genuinely). What happened in these interactions?
    They've pitched up in my local area and left the place looking like a bombsite on multiple occasions. Last time they took over a car park used by sheltered housing and a disabled kid's centre.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    They've pitched up in my local area and left the place looking like a bombsite on multiple occasions. Last time they took over a car park used by sheltered housing and a disabled kid's centre.
    Indeed, it seems like there have been ongoing issues with the Traveller community showing a complete disregard for public property, private property, planning laws... there seems to be an inherently anti-social element in that lifestyle.

    It's important to distinguish Roma/Gypsy ethnicity from anti-social lifestyles adopted by some members of the community. The former should be protected from racism and bigotry. But people who adopt a criminal or antisocial lifestyle are not being discriminated against by speaking out against them or failing to accomodate their lawbreaking
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    They've pitched up in my local area and left the place looking like a bombsite on multiple occasions. Last time they took over a car park used by sheltered housing and a disabled kid's centre.
    Quite interestingly, gypsies started arriving in England in the 1400s! In the time of Henry VIII, parliament passed the Egyptians Act of 1530 (they thought they were "Egyptians" which eventually became corrupted to "Gypsies"). The act said, in part;

    an outlandish people, calling themselves Egyptians, using no craft nor feat of merchandise, who have come into this realm, and gone from shire to shire, and place to place, in great company; and used great subtlety and crafty means to deceive the people--bearing them in hand that they, by palmistry, could tell men's and women's fortunes; and so, many times, by craft and subtlety, have deceived the people for their money; and also have committed many heinous felonies and robberies, to the great hurt and deceit of the people that they have come among....

    ... the Egyptians now being in this realm, have monition to depart within sixteen days.... from henceforth no such person be suffered to come within this the King's realm and if they do, then they and every of them so doing, shall forfeit to the King our Sovereign Lord all their goods and titles and then to be commanded to avoid the realm within fifteen days under pain of imprisonment.
    Sounds quite familiar!
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    Indeed, it seems like there have been ongoing issues with the Traveller community showing a complete disregard for public property, private property, planning laws... there seems to be an inherently anti-social element in that lifestyle.

    It's important to distinguish Roma/Gypsy ethnicity from anti-social lifestyles adopted by some members of the community. The former should be protected from racism and bigotry. But people who adopt a criminal or antisocial lifestyle are not being discriminated against by speaking out against them or failing to accomodate their lawbreaking
    I think this is very fair.

    I would guess most people in the countryside have, at some point, had a group of gypsies/travellers turn up on a local field and cause trouble until the police move them on. Certainly we've had them do serious damage to local parks, school fields et cetera. I don't think it's prejudiced if you're made angry by the way those people behave. There is a pervasive opinion that they're only allowed to get away with it as much as they are because the police are worried about being cast as racist.

    Is it just a minority? Honestly I have no idea. But the number of troublemakers doesn't seem insignificant in absolute terms.

    I mean, I know people who run a sports club on a local field. They have to make sure they padlock the entrances when they're not around, and I've heard them say it's to make sure 'the ****ing gypsies' don't set up camp. Which sounds pretty racist coming from outside, but it's a completely reasonable and plausible scenario they need to guard against. It's happened before.
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    (Original post by AlexanderHam)
    Having said that, do you not think it is a valid comment to point out that the reputation of the Traveller/Roma/gypsy community is negatively affected by the behaviour of people within the community? I think the issue is not gypsy ethnicity, obviously. But the Traveller lifestyle is highly regressive. Criminality is rife. Education is spurned. Many of these communities have nothing but contempt for planning laws and the legal-democratic order that underpins said laws.

    We should not be afraid to speak out against regressive cultural practices.
    I think this has a lot of overlapping issues. It should first be noted that crime generally tends to be more common in impoverished communities. With regard to Roma and gypsy community attitudes to the state and law in general, I think there's a bit of a vicious circle. Much of the persecution of Roma over the past couple of centuries has been, in part, due to them not really fitting with the modern European state. Like the pre-WW2 Jews, they are scattered across Europe, forming an ethnic minority everywhere and having no obvious area of concentration, and so have ended up being treated as "foreign" everywhere.* This is (as with most Roma issues) admittedly less of a problem here than in Eastern Europe, where ethnicity is much more tied up with politics (for instance, in Bosnia, it's still basically impossible for Roma or Jews to run for elected office). Furthermore, a lot of Roma interaction with the state (apart from the outrightly negative experiences, of course) often seems to be gauged, not necessarily intentionally, to their complete cultural assimilation, and so they reject it.

    Lack of education is, I agree, a negative consequence of this, and I think there needs to be two-way work on this, both in terms of building up more trust in education among Romani and gypsy communities by their own activists, but also in trying to build an approach to education that can work better with an itinerant lifestyle. While it is, of course, perfectly possible to be a settled Roma, I think demanding that those who do keep to the quasi-nomadic lifestyle give that up completely is unreasonable, just as it would be for the Sami or the Bedouin.

    To finish on a positive note, though, I would say that, in general, there is more political will in the UK for more Roma-friendly policies than elsewhere in Europe (especially places like Hungary), particularly among (most) Labour MPs. From my own personal experience, recognition of the Porajmos has certainly been significantly improving.

    * Similarly everywhere Roma and other Travellers stay, the wishes of "local residents" will be brought up - something that, to Roma, sounds a bit like saying that they're not "local" anywhere and so their wishes don't matter.
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    Can only give anecdotes but they cause chaos in my local area.
    They are currently in the middle of the local football pitch. That the kids use. And they see nothing wrong with effectively stealing that piece of land.
    They have moved there when evicted from 100 yards up the road. There they stripped open the street lights to take the electricity. And left as much rubbish littered as is at the local tip. Along with numerous children’s bikes that had been stolen from nearby houses.
    The local pub was trashed when they were asked to leave at closing time cos they weren’t ready to go.
    The furniture and windows smashed.
    I personally witnessed them stealing petrol from the local station. When the attendant ran out, they aimed their van at him. He jumped away, narrowly being hit at speed. Not to mention the two cars they hit on the way out.
    They even have a complete disregard for the cemetery. It’s a lawn cemetery. That means headstone only. Not the great big fenced off graves.
    Cars aren’t allowed but it doesn’t stop them driving their vans through it. Damaging other graves.
    The council have so many complaints but are loath to act for retaliation. Yet the settled community are fined and have notices served to amend graves if they don’t meet requirements
    They will cause havoc for two to three months then move on. Returning again a couple of months later

    Maybe it’s a coincidence that the theft rate triples when they are here
    No one can be surprised that our community dreads their appearance. It’s not racism at all.
    If they camped legally, didn’t trash the place, paid their way and behaved appropriately then they’d be as welcome as anyone else
    But they don’t.
 
 
 
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